Nina's 1981 244 GL - "Billie"

timbo

jamesinc;132238 wrote@Vee_Que okay I'll bite, can I dial in squish using stock head gasket with 2nd overbore bores? Presumably I ask the machine shop to surface the deck so pistons run proud by some amount?

I think you get the block decked so the pistons are flush with the block at tdc so you have zero deck height = the tight squish that veeque recommends.
Its the first step for bringing older motors into the 21st century and is definetly worth doing imho

jamesinc

timbo;132305 wrote
jamesinc;132238 wrote@Vee_Que okay I'll bite, can I dial in squish using stock head gasket with 2nd overbore bores? Presumably I ask the machine shop to surface the deck so pistons run proud by some amount?
I think you get the block decked so the pistons are flush with the block at tdc so you have zero deck height = the tight squish that veeque recommends.
Its the first step for bringing older motors into the 21st century and is definetly worth doing imho

From what I've read, from the factory the later B230s will have the pistons a few thou proud of the deck height. @Vee_Que said I think the compressed height of a standard Elring HG was 47 thou. Someone on Turbobricks said the squishiest stock bottom end they've measured is 6.5 thou above deck. Just some numbers, I don't know what kind of clearance I'd need, but I'd be happy with that 6.5 thou above deck figure.

Samman88

Not quite sure if the quench area on a b230 head is recessed, but the general thought is to get the piston close enough to it for the squish (quench) to occur, but not so close as to have the piston kissing them as the conrod stretches out in the revs. This is pretty engine specific due to piston mass, velocity, conrod stretchiness, gasket thickness etc. For my 2J I worked through a fair bit of the theory when choosing a gasket thickness, but it's a finicky thing as the quench effect exponentially increases as distance from piston to quench area decreases. As does the likelyhood of a thong slapping motor. But then people will run a 2mm gasket to drop compresson on their 11:1 na donk, turbo it and make more power than anyone. What gives.
Somender Singh has some interesting thoughts.

jamesinc

Okay well in the interest of not fucking up my life I'll just ask for it to be zero on the deck.

Philia_Bear

timbo;132305 wrote
jamesinc;132238 wrote@Vee_Que okay I'll bite, can I dial in squish using stock head gasket with 2nd overbore bores? Presumably I ask the machine shop to surface the deck so pistons run proud by some amount?
I think you get the block decked so the pistons are flush with the block at tdc so you have zero deck height = the tight squish that veeque recommends.
Its the first step for bringing older motors into the 21st century and is definetly worth doing imho

93 stock blocks have significant positive deck height
Lots of posts on turbobricks on idea deck height for use with stock hg

jamesinc

Philia_Bear;132319 wrote
timbo;132305 wrote
jamesinc;132238 wrote@Vee_Que okay I'll bite, can I dial in squish using stock head gasket with 2nd overbore bores? Presumably I ask the machine shop to surface the deck so pistons run proud by some amount?
I think you get the block decked so the pistons are flush with the block at tdc so you have zero deck height = the tight squish that veeque recommends.
Its the first step for bringing older motors into the 21st century and is definetly worth doing imho

93 stock blocks have significant positive deck height
Lots of posts on turbobricks on idea deck height for use with stock hg

I didn't find many giving actual numbers. I'll have another look

Philia_Bear

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=232783

jamesinc

Okay here's something:

according to StealthFTi, his sources in Sweden recommend .004" per 1K of RPM for rod stretch, plus a hair (.004") for breathing room.

So redline is 6500, that's 6.5*.004 + .004 = 0.030"

The stock Elring head gasket is 0.047" when compressed. I can probably confirm that when I pull the current motor.

So by that calculation running the pistons 17 thou above deck would be acceptable.

However I think I'd rather err on the conservative side and tell the shop to creep up on 10 thou instead.

Slowbrick

jamesinc;132185 wrote...I'm just foolin'. Billie can never die. Never.

The bores are worn, badly. This is still the motor I originally got from @nickm years ago, (@Slowbrick you may remember helping me load it into the back of Amy, and then it leaked some oil which happened to drip through the boot floor straight onto the exhaust pipe and made us think Amy was blowing oil).

I was digging around the garage, and what do you know, I have a full set of B230FT 2nd overbore pistons, crank and big end bearing sets, and a full B230 gasket and seal kit, and a TD04-15g.

The hardest part will be getting the car up the driveway. I think I'll flat tow it most of the way up then get all the able bodied people I know to help me maneuver it the rest of the way into the garage.

So stay tuned, Billie: The Rebirth III will air shortly.

Yeah I remember that. Was a hell of alot of smoke!

Sucks that the motor has worn out on you so quickly. I did have the old FX shortblock here but nobody wanted to take it so it got scrapped. Upset me a little bit to see 13mm rods and a tidy block go to scrap but I just dont have the room anymore.

Maybe an idea would be to get a second block and build it on a stand to minimize downtime? Oh wait I guess it doesnt matter cause it doesnt even run now hey? Might be able to try some super thick oil to see if that can get it to run *poorly*?

jamesinc

@Slowbrick yeah, the oil trick does work, Brendan and I got it running like that once. But it doesn't really solve the problem. I knew (sort of) going in the motor was worn but didn't have the time/money back then to sort it out properly, so I ran it with the expectation that it would be rebuilt later. As a result I was able to be patient and nab overbore pistons when they were on sale. There's always a good block floating around somewhere, but I'm sort of at this point where even the nice ones are 20 years old, and I really want dat new block feel just once :P

GCP e-mailed me back today and said they are sending out a new set of strut tops under the 12 month warranty. I have photos now so here's what they look like 9 months in:

egads (she/her)

Oh wow, those are totally shagged, glad they are sending replacements

jamesinc

Philia_Bear

It really does look like the 240 just opened its hood and puked it's guts out onto the ground

jamesinc

Have the bottom end apart now. My kingdom for a micrometer, but the Vernier will have to do. I'll post pics later.

Big end journals (Haynes says STD size 48.984mm to 49.004mm)

48.97mm
48.98mm
48.95mm
48.97mm

Not accounting for any out-of-roundness.

I don't have oversize bearings so I'm hoping the shop can just kiss it with the emery cloth and it'll be okay. Anyone have thoughts to the contrary?

Ex850R

I'm no expert but would it be prudent to bite the bullet and get bearings and do the job once while you are here.

jamesinc

Top to bottom: 1-2-3-4. Looks like there might be a bit of a burr on one of the oil galleries?

jamesinc

BEHOLD, I have finally found a location for the relay cluster.

And draft wiring/layout

jamesinc

Behold also, I drilled out the flange of the TD04-15g to accept the bolts used by the 12b. Wasn't too hard, had me sweating about the quality of my tap, but came good in the end :)

Now I just need to clock it all and make a wastegate bracket. This cold side seems to lack one of the threads I seem to remember using last time I did this.

jamesinc

Off to the shop we go

Major Ledfoot

jamesinc;132584 wroteTop to bottom: 1-2-3-4. Looks like there might be a bit of a burr on one of the oil galleries?

Interesting, looking at the big end bearings.

#1 and #3 seem to be worn more than #2 or #4, but #1 measures the same as #4, and #3 is the smallest.

Does this engine have squiters &/or an iPD relief valve spring in the oil pump? And was there a turbo / Penta / Melling M181 oil pump in the engine?

« Previous Page Next Page »