T5 gearbox conversion

Barwick10 · 2015-01-12T08:51:19+00:00

Cut from my turbo bricks post forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=244360&highlight=australian+t5%2A Lets look at what common world class T5 boxes ar...

deleted_user_160

Tree;61759 wroteEverything AFTER EA is world class Jay

yes, after ea there was a change in input shaft, amongst other things.
and like i said. trying to find one is very very difficult.

Major Ledfoot

The 5th gear housing of the BA 'box looks a lot longer in @nickm's photos than the Commodore 'box.

So far, it's been posted ... (from p.1)
Dimension A for the Commodore box is 23 inches.
Dimension A for a Falcon box (EA presumably) is 21.5 inches.

(& from p.4)
Dimension A for a AU Falcon box is 23.8 inches.
Dimension A for a BA Falcon box is 24.5 inches.

A Volvo OEM is exactly 6 inches long, according to this page, which is from the bellhousing's transmission face to engine face.

How long exactly is a standard M45 / M46 input shaft (Dimension B ) - my rough measurement is 6.5 inches, with the tip 25 mm long.

This measurement is important to know, so that if someone decided to go with a crazy thick adapter plate in order to move the shifter further back to fit a 700 (say, for example, with a 25 mm thick plate on a Commodore box) then Dimension B can be worked out with a longer input shaft.

Major Ledfoot

Tree;61759 wroteEverything AFTER EA is world class Jay

It seems WC goes back further than EA.
Pix below are from the Australian Transmission Components catalog, v4.12.08.
The K-TRE200x number refers to their overhaul kit part number.
Note how the NWC boxes used in the Brock Groups As have a different overhaul kit to the WC boxes.

Ford

deleted_user_160

vs2 got a 5.7? and the t56?

thought thats some of the info i was talking about referencing back on the first couple pages

what indicates the WC box on that list?

Major Ledfoot

blondejay;61772 wrotevs2 got a 5.7? and the t56?

Heh. You're right, that seems weird, unless it was one of those stroked 304s which HSV produced in small numbers. Or maybe the VSII 5.7 is like those 427 Monaros which ran as 'production cars' in the Bathurst 12 hour... :))

Or they've got it wrong.

thought thats some of the info i was talking about referencing back on the first couple pages

what indicates the WC box on that list?

The part number of the kits on p.78 of their catalog, which says:

Tremec T5
..............................................................5 sp.................................... K-TRE2005...............World Class
Reverse Synchro Ring & Tapered
Input to Mainshaft Bearing.................5 sp.....................................K-TRE2006................World Class
All Brass Synchro Rings....................5 sp.....................................K-BWU2002..........Non World Class

Then on p.79, a bit more of an explanation -

1983-85 T5 - Non World Class
Top loaded aluminium case and extension with 13-52-xxx-xxx castings. Tapered bearing maindrive and mainshaft with cylindrical roller (Torrington) bearing on cluster gear. 5th gear synchro on countershaft cluster. Brass synchro rings on all gears.<p>

1985- T5 - World Class
Top loaded aluminium case and extension with 13-52-xxx-xxx castings . Tapered bearing maindrive, mainshaft, and Timken bearing on cluster gear. 5th gear synchro on countershaft cluster. Paper-lined synchro rings with separate cones on lst/2nd.

nickm

bgpzfm142;61767 wroteThe 5th gear housing of the BA 'box looks a lot longer in @nickm's photos than the Commodore 'box.

Maybe but the bellhousing on the Commodore box is very big.

I'm under the impression that all WC boxes the output shaft is of the same length.

deleted_user_160

[quote="bgpzfm142;61775

1983-85 T5 - Non World Class
Top loaded aluminium case and extension with 13-52-xxx-xxx castings. Tapered bearing maindrive and mainshaft with cylindrical roller (Torrington) bearing on cluster gear. 5th gear synchro on countershaft cluster. Brass synchro rings on all gears.<p>

1985- T5 - World Class
Top loaded aluminium case and extension with 13-52-xxx-xxx castings . Tapered bearing maindrive, mainshaft, and Timken bearing on cluster gear. 5th gear synchro on countershaft cluster. Paper-lined synchro rings with separate cones on lst/2nd.

[/quote]

So if that info is correct all post 85 are all world class. :/ which would mean all 5speed xe/xf/xg falcons were world class as well?

I was under the impression everything pre 90-91 in aus was not WC?

After all, we know aus gets Americas hammidowns

nickm

Just verify the via layshaft bearing cover

Idea is that the box is strong interchangeable and cheap. Or we well as go for a Supra or Getrag box.
The fact that Australian T5s are different from the US info is what this thread is about.
The US conversion has not sorted the shifter length either.

Major Ledfoot

nickm;61783 wrote
Maybe but the bellhousing on the Commodore box is very big.

According to the Dellow graphic, it has a 'Dimension B' of 9.5 inches, which does not including the bearing. Which may explain why the bellhousing is so long.
OTOH, the part mentioned on p.1 and used in the conversion (1352-085-025) has a 'Dimension B' of 7.18 inches, but that shaft has a total length of 9.25 inches including the bearing.

The only part of these Lego-like family of gearboxes which seems to be of consistent size is the main case itself, which is reported to be 235 mm long.

I'm under the impression that all WC boxes the output shaft is of the same length.

Not so sure about that The 2008 Drivetrain Components catalog <-- be warned, 20 MB PDF file, but the closest thing I can find online to a BW / Tremec T5 parts manual, lists 18 (yup, 18!) different part numbers for extension housings, and 17 different output shaft assemblies. And we know the extension housings are available in different lengths.

Given all the available multitude of options, it should be possible to juggle the right combination of input shaft, extension housing / output shafts, and adapter plate thickness to put the T5 shifter through the floor exactly where it's wanted. As well as the right gear sets in there so it doesn't grenade.

nickm

I pulled a Commodore a V6 input from the box it is the the proverbial dogs dick.

Regarding the input shaft length . It is so we can use the off the self adaptor plate.

Major Ledfoot

blondejay;61791 wrote
So if that info is correct all post 85 are all world class. :/ which would mean all 5speed xe/xf/xg falcons were world class as well?

I was under the impression everything pre 90-91 in aus was not WC?

After all, we know aus gets Americas hammidowns

XEs were replaced by XF in 1984, which is when Ford dropped the V8 option in the mid eighties. I can't remember when they introduced a 5 speed to the XF Falcon range, but IIRC, it was a mid model thing - can't remember for certain and can't be sure.

But I am certain VN Commodores always had a WC box, as did the EA Falcon - production car racers (back in the days when it was Holden V6 vs Ford 6) often lent a spare gearbox to a fellow competitor who'd blown one up, so Ford boxes would sometimes find their way into Holdens for a day, and vice versa.

Vee_Que

Everything i ever found said that eas are non wc, so they blew up more often.

Jay, vr on HSVs with the 5.7 stroker off the 5l block, ran the t56, which I know I've mentioned before, its not a mistake! You guys need to do some basic research into the cars you want to take parts from!

Major Ledfoot

[quote="Vee_Que;61806] You guys need to do some basic research into the cars you want to take parts from! [/quote]

Completely agreed! The problem with T5 boxes is they're not a set spec like the M47 and M47 II, or whatever. And unlike the US, we Aussies don't have any T5 application ratio / tag lists for the local stuff yet.

So this post is the beginnings of a list. This post will be updated / corrected with any more info I find.

BTW, EAs are early WC. The design was revised around July 1992 with a different reverse inhibitor spring, a different reverse synchro, the synchro friction material was also changed, as well as the gear ratios. WC or non-WC only refers to the type of layshaft bearing. So it appears there are (at least) two basic types of WC boxes - those with a tapered input to mainshaft bearing and reverse synchro (later ones) and those without (early WC).

ATF or Dexron II was recommenced for all WC boxes.

After much Googling, here are a few box and tag numbers for Australian T5 transmissions in Fords.

.............Tag #.............................Fitment.........................................Notes.
86DA-7003-BA.....552-001......XF 6 cyl S pack
WR2A-7003-AA.....557-001.....AU 6 cyl
87DA-7003-AB.....552-003......Falcon 3.9................0552-066-900 extn hsg, CAMS Group 3K (EA/EB)
91DA-7003-CA......552-006.....EB2 XR6...................3.25 ratio first
91DA-7003-GA.....552-011.......EB.......
94DA-7003-AA......552-012.......EF XR6
96DA-7003-AA......552-013.......EL I6.......................has tapered input shaft bearing (thanks @Rick122S)
WR2T-7003-BB.....557-020......AU XR8 220kw...........T5Z
96DA-7003-BB......552-072......EL V8
3R23-7003-CB......557-008......BA Turbo...................Dimension A = 620 mm (tx face to shifter)

Difference in Ford T5 input shaft lengths

6cyl T5 = 167mm Long (6.574783 inches)
V8 T5 = 193mm long (7.598402 inches)

Ratios

Falcon EA 87DA-7003-AA
1st 3.50:1 2nd 2.14:1 3rd 1.39:1 4th 1.00:1 5th 0.78:1 Rev 3.39:1

1992 EBII Falcon S XR6 91DA-7003-CA
1st 3.25:1 2nd 1.99:1 3rd 1.29:1 4th 1.00:1 5th 0.72:1 Rev 3.39:1

1992 EBII Falcon GT (200kW 420Nm Cobra gear cluster, all synchro, SVO clutch)
1st 3.35:1 2nd 1.99:1 3rd 1.33:1 4th 1.00:1 5th 0.72:1 Rev 2.78:1

1991 EB Falcon S XR8
1997 EL Falcon GT (200kW/420Nm, Cobra clutch with Valeo friction material)
1st 2.95:1 2nd 1.94:1 3rd 1.34:1 4th 1.00:1 5th 0.73:1 Rev 2.76:1

COMMODORE
3.8L V6
1st 3.25:1 2nd 1.99:1 3rd:1.29:1 4th 1.00:1 5th 0.72:1 Rev 3.15:1 ...1352-085-??? input shaft, L=240mm

4.9L V8
1st 2.95:1 2nd 1.94:1 3rd 1.34:1 4th 1.00:1 5th 0.73:1 Rev 2.76:1 ...1352-085-208 tapered brg input shaft, L=205mm (VR-II/VS)

Some more info on Ford ratios -
87DA-7003-AA, fitted to EA, 3.5 ratio first.
91DA-7003-CA, fitted to EB2, 3.25 ratio first.
96DA-7003-AA, fitted to EL, 3.35 ratio first.

Basic model types on Ford T5 tags

86DA = XF
87DA = EA
91DA = EB
94DA = EF
96DA = EL

WR2A = AU series 1
1R23 = AU series 2
2R23 = AU series 3
3R23 = BA
YR23 = AU2 ute

Using a Falcon T5 for your swap? Avoid getting shafted

Check to see if your gearbox has the standard roller bearing or the stronger tapered pocket bearing.
1352-085-025 = 23 tooth, standard bearing, 9.25 inches total length, 182.6mm length trans face to tip
1352-085-050 = 23 tooth, tapered pocket bearing, 9.25 inches total length, 182.6mm length trans face to tip

Tremec's data sheet
The data sheet linked below, authored by Jeff Chytil of Tremec USA and dated 31 July 2006 was initially posted to an Israeli Jeep board. It lists many of the common T5 assemblies and their applications.
jeepolog.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5967&d=1190010271
Of particular interest to us in Oz are 3 entries - the 163, 187, and 188 assemblies, their applications being tagged as "BTR" and BTR AUST" in the list. The 1352-187 assembly is not a WC box, it was used in the VL SS Commodore and there is even a GMH part number for it on the list.

Assy No.......WC?.....Rev.......1st.......2nd.......3rd.......4th......5th.......ratio set......Input shaft p/n.............notes
1352-163.....WC .....3.39......3.50.....2.14.....1.39.....1.00.....0.78.....T5S.78.....1352-085-039 10spl

1352-187.....NWC....2.76 .....2.95.....1.94.....1.34.....1.00.....0.73.....T5U.73.....1352 085 010 26 spl.... p/n 92034927 VLSS

1352-188.....WC.....2.76.....2.95.....1.94.....1.34.....1.00.....0.73..... T5U.73.....1352-085-042 10spl

The input shafts of the -163 and -188 assemblies appear to be unique for Oz. Note the ratios in the -163 assembly match those of the 87DA-7003-AA (EA Ford) gearbox.
Note also that the -188 assembly's ratios matches those of both the Commodore V8 and the Ford EB XR8.

Speculation only:
[1] Tickford models are represented by 4th letter being T - i.e WR2A = AU(I), WR2T = Tickford AU ?
[2] The Ford T5 boxes tagged with ????-7003-BB are V8 boxes / SVO / heavy duty ?
[3] 1352-085-042 input shaft - Ford or Holden or ? Which model(s)? Tapered bearing or roller? Length? Tag number?
[4] Which Falcon boxes had tapered input shaft bearings?

Do you know more info about Aussie T5s? Please drop me a pm or email - bgpzfm at hotmail dot com works.
Revision history:
v1 09 Nov 2015
v2 23 Nov 2015 - updated, added Commodore details; link to Jeff Chytil's data sheet; bibliography; note re tapered bearing input shafts; more questions
v3 14 Dec 2015 - added EL T5 tag
v4 19 Dec 2015 - added BA Turbo T5 tag

Bibliography / data sources

- Tremec T5 Installation Dimensions (pdf, author D. Miller)
- T5 Model Identification (pdf, author Jeff Chytil)
- DT Components Catalog (DT2008.pdf)
- Axiom Automotive 2006 Professional Standard Transmission / Transfer Case Parts Catalog (pdf)
- Inter-Continental Gear & Brake Inc's Cobra Gear catalog (pdf)
- Drivetrain Parts Las Vegas website http://www.drivetrainpartslasvegas.com/
- British V8 website http://www.britishv8.org/articles/borg-warner-t5-id-tags.htm
- Smithfield Diff & Gearbox website http://www.diffandgear.com.au/Tremec.html
- Allstate Gear Inc website http://www.allstategear.com/Ford_Mustang_Borg_Warner_T5_transmission.htm
- Australian Transmission Components catalog (pdf,v4.12.08)
- Dellow Automotive catalog
- various messages on fordmods.com, stangnet.com, Australian Ford Forums, OzFalcom.com.au, vintage-mustang.com, xfalcon.com, fordforums.com, justcommodores.com.au, and here on OzVolvo

EDIT: Nov 23 2018 - correction on BA Turbo box # - NOT 0557-006, correct # is 0557-008

Tree

^Someone get this man a beer!

nickm

Now measure the boxes that need a conversion plate that you can by off the shelf....

Tree

pretty much isn't it! If the BA is 24.5" length and the AU with 23.8" plus adapter thickness of 16mm (0.62") gives 24.4, the AU is purrrfect. And they are cheaper than BAs. BAs would still be ok it would just be closer to the person/away from the engine which is good for short armed people like me!

Kaplhenke plate is $130USD plus shipping, would their V8 adapter plate be suitable for our I6 t5? On the website it says plate is designed for input shaft 182.6 mm (7.18") length vs my 167mm. But I only measured from the transmission face to tip. I recently received order of a V8 mustang input shaft which measures 235mm but I suppose after installation it should be 182.6? Someone correct me lol?

Major Ledfoot

nickm;62257 wroteNow measure the boxes that need a conversion plate that you can by off the shelf....

The long-term goal with the list is to have a data set of T5 gearboxes as factory fitted to Aussie cars, with tag numbers, ratios, the critical Dimensions 'A' and 'B' and torque ratings, so people know what they're looking for and what they're looking at. The only off-the-shelf adapter plate (AFAIK) still available is the Deeworks kit, also available from Yoshifab (Ben Kaplan's site says his plate is presently out of stock) meaning all other conversion plates are custom jobs.

Major Ledfoot

Tree;62415 wrote I recently received order of a V8 mustang input shaft which measures 235mm but I suppose after installation it should be 182.6? Someone correct me lol?

Sounds right. Dimension 'A' should be correct with the required Mustang shaft.

Some of the (online) parts catalogs specify the entire length of the input shaft (which includes the 23 tooth gear) in their measurements, which is longer than Dimension 'A'. From memory, a 9.75 inch input shaft has a Dimension 'A' of 7.18 inches when fitted to the gearbox.

I'd love to have a copy of a genuine BW / BTR / Tremec parts catalog for the T5 series.

Vee_Que

Be aware that 130usd, 180aud, plus 100aud postag, also has a wait time. They don't have them in stock.

Rick122S

Just thought I'd share some info. I bought the mustang input shaft 1352-085-025 to go in my EL falcon box (6cyl). The shaft will not fit because it is for a roller bearing on the main shaft not a tapered bearing as the falcon wc box uses. The mustang COBRA had a tapered bearing but they are the 2.95 first gear I believe, like our local v8 t5 boxes are. I am going to machine the inside of the mustang input shaft to fit the tapered bearing cone. I believe this would be better than using the roller bearing set up from the commodore t5.

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