I think its spun a big end

Cam205 · 2020-02-17T22:33:34+00:00

You say it chugged a whole bunch of smoke and now its knocking? How sure are you that it hasnt ingested a whole bunch of oil from the valvetrain or the turbo...

Cam205

Ok! Ive heard mixed reviews on the Vx3 in a turbo application.

Ive certainly had no issues with Pinging of any sort and Im happy with the way it performs at this point.

Its mainly a daily for my Wife and would be a pain if it were lumpy etc around idle. Im open to ideas for cams but dont want to go crazy.

Got a new 6 sided 14mm 1/2in drive socket this morning to tackle the head. Will report soon, fingers crossed

Cam205

Ok. How do I remove the bastard cam covers to get he head off?

surely I dont need to take the cam gear off or the crank pulley?

Slowbrick

Been a while since I had to do a B230 as the B23 I have is different but from memory the B230 is in three pieces. The upper cover, lower cover and back cover. You take the upper cover off which will show the back cover. Then the cam gear has to be removed to slide the back cover forward to allow the cam to slide back into it when lifting the head. You dont need to remove the crank pulley as the bottom section stays in place as does the back section.

Cam205

Ok. Got it off....

Theres no apparent wear of the block/bores. Bores have all hatching marks on both thrust and exhaust side.

Cylinder 1 looks to be the culprit of something.. Its alot more coked up than the others. See pics.

The water jacket holes look to be totally blocked in some places and not in others.

No apparent signs of head-gasket failure to my eyes.

When pistons are at TDC I can move them all a ‘tiny’ amount side to side emulating ‘slap’ of some sorts. They seems to be fairly tight to make a noise like they were.

I cannot make the rods knock, or make whatever it is make a sound. Cyl 1 definitely looks suss. Theres a lot of build up on the piston crown and the combustion chamber.

Cam205

Slowbrick

Had a look at your photos. Your number one cylinder has damage to the fire ring near the coolant passages. You can see where the water has been running into the cylinder and possibly pooling at the bottom near the spark plugs. That big chunk of carbon would be creating hotspots and lighting off the mix that could be causing that knocking sound. Im gonna hazard a guess that the reason you have that big carbon cake is that the fuel and oil from the cylinders has entered the coolant and is burning off from the water and due to the low temps it caused the build up.

Also that big ass chunk missing from the coolant passage in number one shouldnt be there. That head is junk. Any idea where that chunk has gone? Its possible it melted and exited the exhaust but that would have me a little concerned. Id find another head, throw it on and see how it goes. That damage is pretty obvious so you cant use that head on another engine. Its going in the bin unfortunately.

Cam205

Good spotting.

How could the chunk enter the cylinder if its on the other side of the head gasket?

That build up does look suss and Im not educated enough (I dont understand the theory though) to comment further. Can it not be repaired?

Another concern or interest is a mark on one of the cam lobes and subsequent indentations on the head itself next to the cam follower. Pic will be below. It looks like a small chunk if metal at some point in the life of the engine has been in there. All other sections of the head and the casting texture is all consistent otherwise.

While Im this deep Im keen to check the bearings anyway before throwing the new head on. Im assuming I can just flip the motor upside down and remove the caps and replace them if the bearings are fine? Sump back on and away I go? (With a new head of course.

Slowbrick

Cam205
Good spotting.
How could the chunk enter the cylinder if its on the other side of the head gasket?
That build up does look suss and Im not educated enough (I dont understand the theory though) to comment further. Can it not be repaired?
Another concern or interest is a mark on one of the cam lobes and subsequent indentations on the head itself next to the cam follower. Pic will be below. It looks like a small chunk if metal at some point in the life of the engine has been in there. All other sections of the head and the casting texture is all consistent otherwise.
While Im this deep Im keen to check the bearings anyway before throwing the new head on. Im assuming I can just flip the motor upside down and remove the caps and replace them if the bearings are fine? Sump back on and away I go? (With a new head of course.

Yes you are right, it doesnt make sense that it could enter the combustion chamber from the other side of the gasket, when I think about it properly its more likely to enter the coolant system and get stuck somewhere if its large enough.

Regarding the photos of your cam, that looks like the hardening has started to wear away. This happens when the oil doesnt have enough zinc or the oil is not changed often enough. Judging by the very dark orange colour of the inside of your head im going to go with the second reason.

You can just pull the sump and remove each connecting rod to check for bearing damage. What you are looking for is for the bearing to have all of the white coating removed and copper colouring showing which may also appear blue in colour because of the heat. Should you find this damage but the crank doesnt have the same damage then you should be right to install new std bearings and go. The right thing of course is to pull the entire motor and measure everything but redblocks are very forgiving in terms of tolerances so a quick eyeball and measure with very nears and a micrometer should get you very close if you do decide to measure.

Given long enough your cam will eventually wear away to look like this. This is a KG2T i bought from @Forg about 11 years ago for a case of beer. It started with that same kind of little wear mark from something funky going on with his head not being straight. Its been in 2 engines and has done about 200000km. It finally gave up the ghost two weeks ago when I heard it ticking away one morning when I started the car. Pulled the valve cover and sure enough its done.

Cam205

{"embed-external":{"data":{"url":"https:\/\/cdn.ozvolvo.org\/uploads\/216\/0PZQQ8EG8Q2E.jpeg","name":"E6A7341D-4904-4AB2-8D09-A5AA665FE30E.jpeg","type":"image\/jpeg","size":206792,"width":1080,"height":1620,"mediaID":8949,"dateInserted":"2020-02-19T23:48:32+00:00","insertUserID":2120,"foreignType":"embed","foreignID":2120,"embedType":"file","format":null,"bodyRaw":null},"loaderData":{"type":"file","file":[],"progressEventEmitter":{"listeners":[null]}}}}

{"embed-external":{"data":{"url":"https:\/\/cdn.ozvolvo.org\/uploads\/011\/DZBJZJTWV87V.jpeg","name":"C20341DB-6D11-45D9-B10B-5C9889F47E1D.jpeg","type":"image\/jpeg","size":290444,"width":1013,"height":1520,"mediaID":8950,"dateInserted":"2020-02-19T23:48:32+00:00","insertUserID":2120,"foreignType":"embed","foreignID":2120,"embedType":"file","format":null,"bodyRaw":null},"loaderData":{"type":"file","file":[],"progressEventEmitter":{"listeners":[null]}}}}

Vee_Que

jamesinc
The bores might be usable but you equally could just go straight to overboring and put FT pistons in while you're at it and drop the CR for more boost.
It's about $400 for a full set with rings and new gudgeon pins: https://www.ipdusa.com/products/8608/103073-volvo-piston-024-oversize-b230ft-mahle-0376702-271328

Slowbrick
https://ozvolvo.org/discussion/comment/171709#Comment_171709
Yes you are right, it doesnt make sense that it could enter the combustion chamber from the other side of the gasket, when I think about it properly its more likely to enter the coolant system and get stuck somewhere if its large enough.
Regarding the photos of your cam, that looks like the hardening has started to wear away. This happens when the oil doesnt have enough zinc or the oil is not changed often enough. Judging by the very dark orange colour of the inside of your head im going to go with the second reason.
You can just pull the sump and remove each connecting rod to check for bearing damage. What you are looking for is for the bearing to have all of the white coating removed and copper colouring showing which may also appear blue in colour because of the heat. Should you find this damage but the crank doesnt have the same damage then you should be right to install new std bearings and go. The right thing of course is to pull the entire motor and measure everything but redblocks are very forgiving in terms of tolerances so a quick eyeball and measure with very nears and a micrometer should get you very close if you do decide to measure.
Given long enough your cam will eventually wear away to look like this. This is a KG2T i bought from @Forg about 11 years ago for a case of beer. It started with that same kind of little wear mark from something funky going on with his head not being straight. Its been in 2 engines and has done about 200000km. It finally gave up the ghost two weeks ago when I heard it ticking away one morning when I started the car. Pulled the valve cover and sure enough its done.
https://cdn.ozvolvo.org/uploads/897/SVIUKV15DA15.png

Fwiw, that's repairable.

The myth that because the ring lands are closer on the na pistons makes them weaker is just that. Every other maker in the 90s went to a higher ringland plus the many cases of NA pistons surviving 500hp in redblocks tells me that it's only the compression and poor tuning that goes with it that is the real issue.

That motor is carnage, maybe it was ran with the oil light on the dash for an extended period? That would cause the rod to bend.

Roinik

IMHO if you're going to the effort of pulling the engine, pull the pistons out, check the rings, mic the bore etc.

CRACKERS

With that amount of carbon in the combustion chamber of no 1 piston the rings or piston are toast

Dauntless

How deep is the corrosion in the water jacket on the head? I had one with a similar issue, machined it down .020" and it was fine.

I suspect there's more at play in #1 though, as coolant leaking into a cylinder often removes carbon deposits rather than adding more. Also, I wouldn't expect a cylinder with heavy carbon deposits to detonate just after a cold start.

Could you provide better images of the camshaft? Which lobes show pitting?

Slowbrick

Dauntless
How deep is the corrosion in the water jacket on the head? I had one with a similar issue, machined it down .020" and it was fine.
I suspect there's more at play in #1 though, as coolant leaking into a cylinder often removes carbon deposits rather than adding more. Also, I wouldn't expect a cylinder with heavy carbon deposits to detonate just after a cold start.
Could you provide better images of the camshaft? Which lobes show pitting?

Usually I would say that too but I was wondering if the cylinder temps have been reduced from what looks like a fair bit of coolant entering that it boils off the coolant but cools the oil in the cylinder and causes the sludge/coke buildup? Either way I think we all agree some nasty things are going on in number 1.

Cam205

Just to clarify. It is actually cylinder 4. In the midst of not being versed Ive turned the head around. Its the cylinder closest to the bulkhead and the shots of the head are back to front.

In taking the plugs out over the past few months to try hotter/colder plugs each time cyl 4 plug was always worse off. The plug would always be somewhat damp around the seat of the plug and the tip or part that enters the chamber had more carbon deposits than the rest. It does not look like water has entered the chamber at any point.

Yes I may aswell inspec the pistons and measure it all up. Thankfully so far the block looks good. We only recently tapped it for the oil drain +T etc.

From memory the rear driverside head bolt was noticeably looser than the others. I would hazard a guess that it was 90 degrees less tight. So perhaps the cylinder was leaking ever so slightly or lacking in compression. The coolant was clean as and never boiled but did sometimes spit some out of the top cap. Maybe pressurising or maybe a bad seal. Just guessing here.

Either way either this arvo or tomorrow I hope to have it out.

Cam205

Ill get some better photos this arvo if I can. My phone camera is broken and my wife has the camera at the studio.

Dauntless

I suspect it was leaking compression into the coolant via the corroded out water jacket, pressurising the coolant. Hopefully it can be fixed by simply machining it down a bit, if it's much deeper than .020" you may need to look at options.

Now you've pointed out #4 is the wet cylinder, I can see #1 piston also looks more sooted up than I'd expect. What is your breather setup? Did you do a compression test recently? What plugs were you running?

Spac

Put the motor 90* off TDC, and then gently rock the crank back and forward while carefully watching the pistons. You can sometimes see the piston attached to the crook rod bearing have a slight lag compared to the others.

Also interested to know what this is about:

On my phone, it appears to be a bunch of aluminium melted onto the bore wall.

Slowbrick

Spac
Put the motor 90* off TDC, and then gently rock the crank back and forward while carefully watching the pistons. You can sometimes see the piston attached to the crook rod bearing have a slight lag compared to the others.
Also interested to know what this is about:
https://cdn.ozvolvo.org/uploads/147/I69PARLSMH7C.png
On my phone, it appears to be a bunch of aluminium melted onto the bore wall.

I looks like how my WR cylinder looked when the piston skirt broke and drew aluminium crayon everywhere.

Cam205

Ive been looking at the soot on 1 and 4 and have come to the conclusion that its the way the manifold disturbes the air. An inherent design of it?

Theres no fire trap connected. It runs a catch can of sorts and does no go back to the manifold. It breaths a little but theres not much if any oil in the can. I have a suspicion the turbo seals are leaking internally as there is a small amount of oil build up on the bottom of the intake hoses before and a little after the intercooler.

The one oddity is that when you look at the inlet manifold itself down the runner of cyl 4 there is alot more build up around the injector compared to the others. Ill get a photo later. It has a clear and distinct difference. Lack of fuel vapour cleaning the walls of the port so to speak. Inside the port on the head it looks just the same as the others.

I was running brp5es and went to a 7es and want to go in-between to 6es. The 5 were running to hot with the extra boost. Showed up signs of det on a couple if them, well the early stages of it anyway. The 7 are too cold, sluggish off boost comparatively but smooth on boost. The 6 should be the sweet spot.

I still dont see any sure signs of head gasket failure and both oil and coolent were very clean.

Ive come to a halt today stuck on the top bolt for the starter. Cant find my uni joint so back to the tool shop in the morning.

Looking forward to getting at the bearing shells and the pistons themselves!

Cam205

Compression was stable across the all 4 last time I checked about 2 months ago when I thought it had an issue of sorts. It puffed smoke that morning also.

Its never run right I dont believe. Its had a slight miss at idle even before the turbo was fitted. Its worse in the mornings when cold obviously and comes and goes.

That to me rules out injectors, plugs and the AMM for that. I also changed all the gaskets in case of air leaks.

Ahh ranting on now.

Cam205

No no melted aluminium.

Its just a bad photo/reflection of something. All those areas are covered in soot of sorts.

« Previous Page Next Page »