240
(sorry if it's already been posted)
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/volvo-car-electric-hybrid-vehicle-petrol-diesel-combustion-engine-a7824316.html
Definitely an interesting direction.
It's a shift away from "are electric cars good" to "what is the best way to do electric cars" I suppose.
I wonder who will follow...
gavinh
A very bold statement from volvo, they have always been the leaders in safety. Why not hybrid cars too. Also isn't Saab planning to start building electric cars? And of course there's Koenigsegg, just Imagen if Volvo/polestar and Koenigsegg built cars
Cal
The hybrid is surely just a stepping stone to eventually eradicating any element of combustion, easing the transition for the user, otherwise i don't see any benefit in hybrids over fully electric which have been proven already.
I imagine this is going to have some positive side effects for the car culture as more people will become attached to their "traditionally" powered cars, choosing to maintain them instead of upgrading. I wonder what the energy consumption figures are when comparing driving an old petroleum powered car to the energy used to produce a new vehicle. Am i doing a good thing by the environment driving a 30 yr old car, keeping it out of landfill and fighting consumption or does the c02 it produces day to day when compared to electric cars cancel that out?
240
The appeal of hybrid over purely electric is more power. You can have an electric motor that is fine, but add a petrol motor too and you've got loads more power. (Eg Porsche 918 Spyder.)
But the question of which way produces less emissions overall is an interesting one. I think that in general, keeping an old car going instead of replacing it with a newer, more efficient petrol one has less of an impact, but it mag be different with electric.
Of course, one has to consider the embodied energy too - that is, the impact of the production process (including transport and processing of materials, etc etc.)
Cal
I don't know if the power argument is still valid these days, didn't Lucid motors just produce a 1000hp thing with a 400 mile range? We all know Teslas have some poke as well. Maybe it's more a weight contest and they aren't as nimble as a lighter hybrid. Or maybe it's just to convince those that have insecurities about completely giving up petrol.
Very good point on the embodied energy, I remember everyone use to harp on about how terrible the Prius was for the environment, short lifecycle, evil materials and manufacturing process and then impossible to recycle
Slowbrick
The issue for me is that they arent affordable. I cant walk into a dealership tomorrow and buy one for "regular" car money. I drive 25kms one way to work each day. I would own an electric car if it was affordable to purchase and still keep a petrol powered one for long distances.
Philia_Bear
Slowbrick;113754 wroteThe issue for me is that they arent affordable. I cant walk into a dealership tomorrow and buy one for "regular" car money. I drive 25kms one way to work each day. I would own an electric car if it was affordable to purchase and still keep a petrol powered one for long distances.
Second hand mitsubishi outlander PHEV
Vee_Que
Philia_Bear;113756 wroteSlowbrick;113754 wroteThe issue for me is that they arent affordable. I cant walk into a dealership tomorrow and buy one for "regular" car money. I drive 25kms one way to work each day. I would own an electric car if it was affordable to purchase and still keep a petrol powered one for long distances.
Second hand mitsubishi outlander PHEV
Except you need to drive an outlander.
Spac
I believe that the existing car nearly always ends up better for the environment than building any sort of new car.
Although I'm also pretty certain that the Prius stuff was skewed to make the Prius look bad - it seemed unfair to judge the the-new technology directly against established technology.
The main value of a hybrid is that they fit into current expectations of range, refuel/recharge times, and availablity of places to refuel/recharge.
nickm
Range is the issue for Hybrids is a way to increase it until batteries catch up. I would not want to drive a Tesla to the snowy and around.
Not sure if conversions will ever become common.
Slowbrick
Also without knowing many of the facts I'm lead to believe a regular car is less damaging to the environment during its life. If a regular car is maintained properly throughout its life then its useful for lets say about 20 years. Then when its no longer needed it can be about 100% recycled.
I would imagine that an electric car is useful for about 5 years until the batteries/software become obsolete. This means that for the same 20 years you might need to have 4 different cars which are 100% recyclable. In effect I see that the damage to the environment is not removed but is instead moved to different parts of the lifecycle of the vehicle. A regular car damages the environment during running from emissions but can be 100% recycled at the end. An electric car makes zero emissions but cant be 100% recycled at the end so therefore makes waste. It will also be expected to be replaced more often.
240
Zero emissions is also interesting. If the electricity used to charge up an electric car is produced using coal, the emissions are huge (and I think I read about a test where a small electric hatchback charged up with coal electricity had the same impact as a regular petrol-powered Commodore).
But, if the electricity is made with solar, wind etc then 'zero emissions' is a bit more accurate.
It goes without question that petrol cars aren't sustainable in the long term but I guess we have to distinguish between genuine solutions and marketing/profiteering.
nickm
Unfortunately petrol is going to run out. It has been that way since its introduction. Fossil fuels need to go. Not only because it is a finite resource but also because it is poison economically and politically globally.
Look at the issues in the middle east, without oil do you really think there would be as much turmoil?
Electric cars have far less moving parts. It is engineering 101 that they can be made more reliable than the internal combustion engine.
If the amount of innovation went into batteries over the last 50 years that has gone into petrol environmental issues would be insignificant.
You will see a lot of miss-information as the dinosaurs make their last grasp for market dominance.
Slowbrick
I remember reading somewhere that the first cars were actually electric and that petrol powered cars were seen as the outsider. This changed when Henry Ford made it easy to produce them and ultimately started the shift from electric to petrol cars. Imagine if he wasnt born and we stayed on the same track?
nickm
Also renewable ethanol would also create similar economic problems to oil.
It has been a long standing issue with major car manufacturers being supported by big oil.
Take Sydney's tram system for example. Money was on the table as buses run on diesel.
That said I've never seen a study as the loss of energy in using coal powered Electric cars vs Petrol driven. And the environmental impact.
eg... does a Coal powered electric car like a Tesla create more carbon and pollution than a typical petrol car.
As 240 says introduce renewable electric power and the argument is over.
Spac
I don't think it is fair to say a Prius only has a life span of X-years, when there are so many petrol/diesel powered vehicles still operating long past their expected life span.
Slowbrick
That estimate was just based on the typical lifespan of a lithium battery now. If the battery dies in a hybrid then it will still work but turns into a regular car. In a full electric car then it makes it useless. How this is solved is not yet known cause we aren't there yet.
Spac
Slowbrick;113805 wrote If the battery dies in a hybrid then it will still work but turns into a really slow regular car.
Fixed.
A mate has an early Prius. He got a good second hand battery pack for hundreds, rather than thousands of dollars.
Presumably, in the future there will be aftermarket battery packs, or maybe even battery reco services.
I don't see it as being much different to shitty autos in P2 Volvos (which may be damming it with faint praise...). I mean, we all know that a dead auto can mean the end of an otherwise good car, but it certainly isn't a death sentence.
240Hearse
YES lets loose the 'PETROLIUM PAST' for an Electric future and , we may even become healthier humans and finally get some sleep , as my family is awoken by 6.3ltr biturbo "merc' three pointed pri%k Wa#kers driving along minor roads in our area at 2:00am every morning , YES 'ELECTRIC' CARS sooner than later and 'VOLVO' is leading the was thanks to TESLA and NEVS(SAAB Sweden)
240Hearse
Roof, boot and bonnet sections on vechiles incorporated with solar cells feed the batteries to stop full drain, that is dump and charge cycles what ruins battery life and performance _the dump and charge cycles is what kills the electric storage of batteries not time itself.
nickm;113794 wroteAlso renewable ethanol would also create similar economic problems to oil.
It has been a long standing issue with major car manufacturers being supported by big oil.
Take Sydney's tram system for example. Money was on the table as buses run on diesel.
That said I've never seen a study as the loss of energy in using coal powered Electric cars vs Petrol driven. And the environmental impact.
eg... does a Coal powered electric car like a Tesla create more carbon and pollution than a typical petrol car.
As 240 says introduce renewable electric power and the argument is over.