deleted_user_160
Take your cover off for a few shots?
Vee_Que
Doesn't quite come off. Polished it up today, thanks to Elliot. He took shots..
Vee_Que
As my car isn't aiming to be a cheque book car with as many off the shelf parts that i can throw at it, just to drive to shows and have people tell Me how sick it looks and how awesome the engine is.
I need to start looking into making the cars handling improve rather than just be low with no actual improvement of the stock pickup points and angles. As that is stupid. More to come .
Vee_Que
Taken from
http://calgaryvolvoclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3342
Here's where we start to geek out on the suspension a little. First, some definitions for those who aren't 100% up on this stuff:
Roll center: An imaginary point at which a suspension rolls about. Old cars had quite low roll centers in the front, more modern cars have higher roll centers to control roll without stiff springs or sways. The roll center is complicated to describe, but if you draw a line between the center of the tire's contact patch through the instant center of the suspension, for each side of the car, the roll center will be where those lines cross each other. It can be above or below the ground, and it can be to the left or to the right of the center of the car. Ideally it shouldn't move around too much in relation to the body's center of gravity.
Roll couple: The distance between the roll center and the body's center of gravity, creating a roll moment. Increase cornering force or weight, or increase the distance between the center of gravity and the roll center, and the car will generate more roll moment.
Roll axis: A line drawn between the front and rear roll centers. Front suspension roll centers are usually much lower than those in the rear on live axle cars, a bit more level on independent suspension cars.
Camber gain: The tendency for a suspension to gain (or lose) negative camber upon compression. A good front suspension will have this feature tailored to keep the tire planted at all times.
Instant center: This is an imaginary point in space where lines drawn through the upper and lower suspension pivot points meet. Extend a line through the upper balljoint and upper inner pivot, and another line through the lower balljoint and lower inner pivot, and where those lines meet is the instant center.
Swing arm length: In a 1:1 relationship with camber gain, the swing arm length is the distance between the instant center and the wheel. Shorter swing arm lengths mean more camber gain, but too short can also cause handling issues.
Front Lateral Load Distribution: The FLLD is analogous to the relative roll stiffness of the front suspension, compared to the total roll stiffness of the car. This takes into account roll couples at each end plus the stiffness of the front & rear springs & sways.
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Stock, at rest, the front suspension roll center of a 122 is at ground level due to the arms being parallel and horizontal. Since the arms are parallel, camber gain is zero and the swing arm is infinite. When you lower the car on lowering springs, the roll center drops below ground by approximately the same distance that the car's been lowered: 1.5" lowered car means the RC is 1.5" below grade, and this is good because it maintains the same roll couple as at stock height. The net result is that the center of gravity is lowered so it won't put as much load on the outside tire, but with the same roll couple the car will roll as much as it did before (minus the effect of stiffer springs, if present). Since the control arms on a 122 are so long (relative to the width of the car) there isn't much camber gain, and all the roll you get in corners (no matter the height of the body) puts more positive camber into the outside tire, which ruins handling. There IS slightly more camber gain at this new lowered position, but not much.
The rear roll center is where the panhard rod crosses the body centerline - that's the way it is with beam axles - and when you lower the car 1" the roll center drops 1/2". The roll couple in the rear reduces a little, so the rear end doesn't generate as much roll moment. Since the front roll center has dropped more than the rear, the roll axis gets steeper. This means that the car is rolling less on a horizontal axis, if you can picture it, and this causes some handling traits that could be considered "old fashioned".
So what does this all mean in my car? Well, the low front roll center and the stiff springs & stiff front sway combine to give me an FLLD of 70%, according to the suspension analysis program I'm running. In theory the FLLD should be about 5%, numerically, than the front weight distribution. On a car with 52%/48% F/R distribution, AND with everything else squared away nicely, the FLLD will be in the neighborhood of 57%. 70% suggests that I've got a TON of understeer, and this is exactly what I found in steady state cornering. Additionally, I've got a compromised camber condition: I know the car rolls more than 1.5 degrees, so in hard cornering my outside tire has lost all of it's static negative camber and is going into positive camber, and the high tire pressure in the front (needed to try and help the edges of the tire survive) reduces grip even further due to reduced rubber on the road.
Vee_Que
I'm also working on some suspension geometry issues by lowering the dogbone 1.25", which raises the roll center and increases the camber gain. Stock camber gain is practically zero and the stock roll center is on the pavement, but when the car is lowered the roll center drops below ground. This mod raises it back up above ground, reducing the roll couple in front. I will add a sway bar in the rear to balance the chassis."
This is an option, although the "custom" made arms for Fritzs car may be viable if they are in fact not custom in the arms, just in the Pickups. Given the rest is off the shelf hot rodding/ holden stub and ball joints.
But given I'm like most people and don't have a credit card to spend on the 122 with brand name parts at top rate prices no doubt, it isn't very viable anyway. So i will be looking at how I can fabricate things myself and with mates who have access to machines that will help.
timbo
Who's gonna engineer your subframe?
What are you doing with the lower control arm?
Will you just mount the ball joint on the top of the arm?
Why don't you space the balljoints down to correct it? Its how most jdm roll centre adjuster work
Also could you flip the upper control arms upside down and left to right?
Vee_Que
Have an engineer. Assuming I modify the crossmember, given its an option, if you read what was written...
No, that's not safe, but people do it to look cool.
Its a possibility, people who race these cars successfully don't do that, but it goes on the table. I'm still in the research phase as the money phase is not happening just yet.
No, as you know from helping with Fritzs 122, the shape doesn't make a change to suit that.
Thanks, play again.
Vee_Que
Another not great pic, but it has. More badges and trims fitted!
Brehon47
Nice vehicle VQ - had a grey 4 door Amazon in '69 and on its first trip it dropped the tail shaft. Unhappily I sold it, replaced it with a 1967 3.8S Jaguar saloon...a very different approach to motoring. Good luck - it was my first choice in coupe form as a Targa entry, but bought a 242GT instead that ended up as a contribution to a house deposit. When I make some room in the driveway I'll look for another Amazon - a 123GT would be a good basis for development. I'm filing your chassis & suspension development ideas for future reference. Best of luck. Tiny
sucksqueezebangblow
The red looks awesome, can you take more pics of it in the sun without your phone case on?
deleted_user_160
Maybe I should get a shot when.I see him next.
Vee_Que
It's not the phone case that is the issue. The. Glass is. Knackered unfortunately. I will grab my actual camera and get some pics
Using a 123gt as a base vs a 122 2 door sounds expensive, or do you just mean a 2 door?
AshDVS
Great that you've been doing some research into it all. Applying what you've read immediately might not be the best idea unless you already know what you have.
Some basics are going to be -
* What is your ride height (how much, in reality, did you change it from standard)?
* What are your spring rates?
* What does your car weigh?
* What F/R weight distribution do you have (in bold, because of the importance of understanding your car rather than the cut-and-pasted info from the link)
- When measured, how much fuel was in the car? Where is the battery?
If you don't know any of the above, but want to know, give me a call or an email.
I can measure the spring with very little notice but need some warning to book you in for a session on the scales.
Of course, half the enjoyment is the tinkering, so if you're keen on the approach of trying stuff out until you find what you like, then putting some science into it may not be of interest.
What are you welding the crossmember with?
All that aside, the car is looking better and better as the finishing pieces go onto it and would, no doubt, look heaps better if your camera hadn't started new years celebrations a little early. ;)
Brehon47
VQ showing my ignorance - I just assumed the 123GT though rare would be a coupe and have some brake, chassis & suspension development ex factory albeit now nearly 50 years ago. I haven't checked Targa rules for historic either so it may be that there are limitations on non factory/homologation features. Tiny
Vee_Que
Andrew whites 122 is just a 2 door. The only differences in a 123gt was a different cam, the 69' cars had more power due to running a 2l against the earlier 1.8, which i have in my car and Andy runs too. The r sport parts are where the interest is.
With the crossmember, I probably won't cut into it, the one that has done that I don't think has been driven yet. Springs... Well I have some in there for now, when I recover funds for the car, over the next year, i will be looking at either off the shelf or specifically rated springs, eibachs seem to be a good option to be because of the qaulity, but if I can find out its rates, I may skip them. Current springs are not particularly great, but are doing the job. The rate on the front feels good, but the rear sucks. But it has nothing special shocks also. Old Holden springs match for size on these, so i may do some. Measuring and end up with them that would not be fiddled with.
Weighing the car is definitely on the cards, I have access to a brake tester that will weigh each side, one axle at a time. it's meant to be about 1050-1100kg, George with his race 122 reckons with a cage he can get 950kg?
Vee_Que
And yes. I really need better photos.. new phone in the next month!
Raebird
Looking good alex, well done!
WaterBoy
Looks good mate!
Vee_Que
A_Volvo_Driver
Looks great Alex. Must sell my bike for some Hank money.
