Reno POS / The adventures of a tight arse with a 40yr old sedan.

bowieDan (@bowie) Sydney
edited May 2018 in Non-Volvo
So I've got me this little Reno 12 I'm fsking around with.

Time to mount that Sparco Evo seat I picked up cheap. i'm trying to get my head around the Cams / ADR requirement.

I'm mostly confused by this in how it relates to seats on rails.

http://docs.cams.com.au/Manual/GeneralRequirements/2018 Edition/GQ04-Schedule C-2018-1.pdf

See Section G & H

I read this as;

-if you are using the original rail / seat mounting points fine (does this concern itself with where the seat mounts the rail?, or is it just talking about the floor locations?)
-If directly to the floor, 3mm steel, or 5mm aluminum (min 40cm2)
-If making a cross remember off the floor, square tube of 35mm with a wall of 2.5mm, with welded m8 inserts.

So what about aftermarket rails, or using rails? do they have to have cross members as mentioned above? or can they bolt directly as you would the floor (3mm steel, 5mm aluminum?)

Currently I'm working on the following;

https://imgur.com/a/OLe60rT

What this is, it's the original seat rails, still mounted in there original locations with their original hardware, with some aluminium box section (30x15x2mm) acting as cross rail to the L brackets for the seat. The original seat attaches to the points market in yellow, I enlarged these slightly (from 6mm to 8mm) in order to accept a decent size bolt. I can take the cross frame off and mount the original seat and all is back to normal.

Anyway I figured I'd mock it up like this to;

a) get a position sorted
b) see if this was going to work

Position is good (just a smidge over to the left and it will be sweet) Everything is held together with steel washers and high tensile M8's, is this going to be ok?

I had hoped that it was going to be far enough forward so that it could be mounted directly to the floor, there is a void however to accommodate the rear passenger so that's not going to work for the rear bolts.

The mounting points in the car are 530mm apart, whilst the seat requires a length of 345mm. So that's a good 92mm in either side of the mounting location. If having a frame rail on the rail is a no no, perhaps some 6mm steel, say a L bracket 100mm x 50mm x 6mm (150mm total length) would be suitable?

Feels proper silly with this thing in it now XD

Oh some in situ

https://imgur.com/FXUkvBY
https://imgur.com/BgpCbcj

Wooo Race Cars.
Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4
Playing: 1971 R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car
Previous: Bunch of Peugeot's 504ti, 505sti, 405mi16
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Comments

  • jamesincJames (@jamesinc) Oz Volvo Ice Fortress
    I imagine @Spac is probably the leading authority on CAMS on this forum.
    Vee_Que
  • Well, bolted in and done. Feels pretty stiff, I still feel it might be worth now turning this template into steel.

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZKoBe2XPsDkGDwm6A

    I'll do some more investigation before I commit, I have seen folks use entire sections of 3mm to make a false floor, of to which then bolt the seat on to. Anyway more research.

    Of of course I cleaned the rail before putting it back in, now it moves like crap. That'll teach me.
  • Anyway i think I'll do this

    l73IkCth.jpg

    So the green dots are the factory mounting points (which are just 6mm screws for what it's worth). The red pieces running left to right are say, 30x15x2mm Aluminum box section, and the blue pieces are again 30x15x2mm box section, and are arranged to be as wide as the seats L Bracket mounts (drilled spots for it to attach indicated by the black dots) Thus.. I will have heaps of room to move the chair forward, back as much as I want.

    The benefit of this is also perhaps I can tweak the placement left and right as well if I so dare.

    Anyway. As this is "bolted to the floor" cams manual says it should be at least 5mm aluminum plate with a surface area of 40mm2. I think those long runners would satisfy that requirement?

    At the end of all that, the seat would only be 30mm of the ground too.

    Perhaps this is better?
  • this is not professional advice - some comments
    CAMs requirements you quote are about strength of the floor anchorages and it doesn't provide any guidance on the rails.
    The biggest problem I see is with what you've mocked up is the strength of the new frame.
    - Aluminium sections - those are way too small.
    - Hollow sections always require crush tubes (but see previous point)
    - geometry is unfavourable and induce high stresses because of the offset from the anchorages (ie bending).
    Have a look at how a few different seat frames are configured and you'll see none like this - which is for a good reason. Most are also high strength steel and stronger than they look.

    Don't forget that whilst it might feel stiff under hand loads, it has to restrain loads of a xxkg under a few G. Have a look at the ADR (design loads are in kN not kg)

    For road going application if not CAMS - it will need an engineers certificate if you fabricate something.
    bowie
  • SpacSpac (@Spac) Canberra-ish.
    Despite James tagging me, I only saw this now...

    I will respond in two parts:

    Firstly the 'legal' stuff.
    Schedule C only relates to circuit races (ie: door handle to door handle), so isn't actually a rule for Supersprints or regularity or anything.

    But assuming that you want to make sure that the car is SchC compliant...
    All of that stuff is about mounting the seat to the bodyshell. It does NOT include anything about seat frames/rails/runners - CAMS is surprisingly silent on that whole topic, although the "fit for purpose" catch all will apply if you turn up with seat mounts made of paper mache.

    Is the R12 actually subject to the ADR for seat mounts? The use of M6 bolts suggests not.

    Now... the engineering part.

    What you have built looks fine but underdone. I imagine that the aluminium will flex and crack over time, even if it feels good now.
    I would replace the aluminium RHS with 3mm wall steel RHS. Scrutineers like steel, and 3mm wall thickness is difficult for them to argue against.
    3mm walled aluminium RHS in 75x25 will be fine if you are trying to keep the weight down, and is the minimum that I have found to be rigid enough in the long term.

    The 6mm mounting bolt worries me and will trigger most scrutineers. Is there any way to turn them into 8mm bolts? Maybe cut off the captive nuts off the body and replace with loose 8mm nuts?

    Fitting crush tubes can be a PITA. It can be helpful to use a holesaw through one wall of the RHS, to allow a socket to access the single mounting face.



    Also, a general aside:
    Contrary to popular belief, if you run forward into something, the seat and its mounts aren't that heavily loaded. The only times that the seat mountings are heavily loaded is if you go backwards into something or are hit hard from behind.
    egadsEx850R
  • Thanks very much for all that. And thanks for confirming there is nothing said about rails etc, I was going silly looking for any reference.

    Regarding the 6mm seat mounts, Yes I've been thinking about them too. There is probably 30mm either side of them in the floor of the car where I can do as Schedule C suggests and use some 3mm steel plate either side, and drill some new 8mm mounting points. Might as well. Oh the 6mm nuts are kinda sandwiched between two skin layers of the car. It's a little weird.

    Also having test fit it on the rail, setting it in a position comfortable for driving it's not to much of a pain getting in and out of it. I'm going to take that rail out of the equation and keep it for when it needs to be rego'd, It was only a "thought" if it made life just that little bit easier.

    Wasn't to much worried about keeping weight down (at the moment), so I'm happy to build something out of 3mm Steel, I'll go shopping next pay day and see what they have.

    Cheers Spac! :)
    Spacegads
  • bowieDan (@bowie) Sydney
    edited May 2018
    Well forget all that. I found some L brackets that will;

    -Keep Cams Schedule C happy
    -Are tall enough for me to be comfortable
    -Are long enough for me to be comfortable
    -Have base plates wide enough to clear the slope in the chassis

    But I wouldn't have known any of that if I didn't murder some innocent box section.

    Thank you humble box section, thank you.

    Spac I'm going to drill out those 6mm securing positions have some adults weld in some m8's for me. The positions are reinforced in the chassis with some nice triangle brackets, so it makes sense to re-use them. It should be safe enough, well safe enough for my 144km/h top speed :P
    Spacjamesincegads
  • bowieDan (@bowie) Sydney
    edited May 2018
    Well I had fun yesterday.

    JfU3xX1h.jpg
    angL6Yoh.jpg


    What you are looking at is a glorious glorious head from a Renault 810 (Sierra or Cléon-Fonte engine). This thing is common (depending on where on earth you where born) to the 5, 8, 9, 10, 12, 16. They made them in various displacements, with various compression ratios it was there "world engine" to some degree and was put together locally everywhere. They were still pumping these things out in Turkey as Dacia's (made famous by Player Unknown Battlegrounds :lol: ) until the early 2000's

    Our's come form the factory at Heidelberg in Victoria were locally they were fitted to 8's, 10's, 12's

    Now this is actually the sh1t version. The later version (which we never got here, C1J & C2J) has the inlet ports spaced much much nicer (very similar to a L series datsun, revheads used to take L manifolds and re-purpose them). Anyway this is the spare head for my wanna be historic track car and I have had.. I suppose you could call it fun widening out the inlet ports ready for heaps of compression and fresh everything.

    I knew nothing really about engines until I've started this project so it's honestly been bloody great. Strongly recommended. Also read Vizard.

    Anyway! This thing stock comes with 33.25mm Inlet valves and 30mm exhaust. With a 73mm Bore and 77mm stroke (he. I've got a stroker) she is a tincy little thing, 1298cc, with cylinder worth 324.5cc. The compression chamber is a moon shape I suppose you would say? With not a great deal of room to increase the inlet valve, I spent the afternoon opening up the inlet ports from 29mm - 31mm. Not much. but this thing is measured in mm's. I think at this stage I'll finish cleaning up the ports (valve seats need attention) then just get a 3 angle job done on the seats and valves. Example below of the chamber and small valves.

    AZSMn0ph.jpg

    If the seats have to come out, well then I can think about maybe get a few more mm's of inlet in there. The stem is a fairly sensible 7mm and the collet arrangement is a right angle cut into the stem, so, should be easy if it gets that far. Rocker system is a mechanical tappet again should be straight forward if off brand valves end up in there.

    Now I have the standard manifold and a larger Weber (36/32) that I have also been widening to match the head. Oh, I should have said. This thing will hopefully just drive me to an event, then spend the rest of the day between 5k and 8k rpm. I expect it to be hopeless, frustrating, and totally shit everywhere else.

    Eg of manifold
    cYY20akh.jpg

    I took about 3mm of the bottom of the bowl along with 4mm of the sides of the carb base, and again 2mm of the inlet runners in effort to match everything as best I could. The thing came with a 32/32 DGV, this 36/32 is a "proven swap" once airflow is increased to take advantage of it.

    Anyway I went looking for a choke assembly, and bought these instead.

    VGwgyith.jpg

    *whoops*

    To be fair it was $50 more then the replacement bits so... I don't know. Oh! This is a set of 4 x CVK40's from a Kawasaki ZZR1100. 40mm throttle bodies, 38mm venturi's, each flowing about 160cfm. The math says these will be too big, but at the price of a choke assembly I couldn't help myself. If it's crap back to plan A with the DGV and widened stock manifold.

    These carbs are 99mm in total width meaning I have 180mm left to build a manifold, add air cleaners etc etc. Because these things are so tightly packed (about 25mm) it's going to be fairly straight forward to attached to my head. A couple of V's made with 32-35mm tube (expending to meet them correctly at 40mm however), perhaps at 30 degrees apart, maybe 60mm in total length should see it be pretty snappy, if I can get the airspeed to pull them. If the manifold is made of steel I probably won't need to support them else where in the car but we will see.

    Anywhere. What started as a lets learn how a cylinder head works now has me with all this crap. I'm not even sure how I got here...

    Ah I bought myself a Dremel to cut some rusted bolts of a steering arm.

    Thanks a lot Dremel.

    Yaaaaay to learning and Brom Brom sounds.
    timboegadsToomanyVolvosVee_QueSpacEx850Rbgpzfm142
  • Ex850RSnoopy (@Ex850R) Somewhere Over the Rainbow. Melbourne.
    Love it so far!
    I have soft spot for R12s, my sister was an addict after a couple of Datsun 1600,,two or three 12 wagons iirc.
    Memories of school holidays spent staying with her and heading out on back country roads at 120k plus, the little cars scooting along quite well.
    cancer sucks
  • Yeah it's thus far been a fun little nugget.

    When I moved up here from Melbourne I had it packed to the brim. I left Melbourne and drove straight to Albury at 65mph. Then drove again straight to Golburn again at 65mph, arriving in Sydney without incident. I re ordered my NRMA subscription for the trip particularly.

    And it's been a hoot to learn on.

    VIV LA OLD Stuff!
    egadsEx850RVee_Que
  • bowieDan (@bowie) Sydney
    edited June 2018
    Well my oh my, these CV 40's are nifty little things. I think the 4 x of them in a bank is nearly as heavy as a single DGV 32/36.

    Now a mock up against the manifold gasket.

    Crfk3x4h.jpg

    The back of the hand math when I bought the things wasn't that bad. By the time I introduce previously mentioned inlet runner, and tilt them up 30~ degrees, the path to the head / valve will be pretty straight. And it wont fowl the exhaust manifold either. (tappers away downwards of course)

    If I knew as much or thought of using these carbs earlier, I would have shaped the inlet ports to further be of advantage, that is grind them at angle preferencing the top of the inlet runner.

    But we are getting back to bees dicks here. It will be a miracle if there is enough wind speed to draw on these things hehe.

    Now to think about the manifold. Say I just fold / hammer over some 50mm width flat bar making a circles for each runner? Have them welded to a piece of flat bar measured against the gasket, then use the standard rubber / poly motorcycle runners to mount them together.

    I might just go look for some 32~ mm tube and cut to length.

    Yaaaaaaay
    egads
  • bowieDan (@bowie) Sydney
    edited June 2018
    Well the second largest single investment at $350 arrived today. Presenting. The Ignition Brains.

    PC4OB0Nh.jpg

    This is indeed the Nodiz Pro. A bit of reading and it's an interesting kinda thing historically actually. So the story goes M-Tech Automotive is the connection to the current folk that make it (Motorsport Electronics).

    Back in the early days of Megasquirt, the founder here was at Uni, and for some pocket money was bringing in the DIY Mega-squirt kits, assembling them, and selling them within the UK. This gathered a bit of momentum to the point where he had a couple of mates assisting and making some good mark up.

    This is where the story gets a little messy. The legend goes that within the UK there was a bit of competition now going on, and one of the re-sellers kicked up some dirt / and they (M-Tech) had mad a few crappy Mega-squirts that had got some bad press within the community, to the point where they were then labelled as making illegal clones, and kind of pushed out of the Mega-squirt inner sanctum.. What ever that is..

    Anyway they seemed to continue to assemble kits for a bit as a giant FU to the others in the Mega-Squirt click, before then stopping, and starting again with the new company, "Motorsport Electronics"

    So this Nodiz Pro, is probably in reality borrows a lot of that Mega-squirt history and functionally, and in reality acts as a Mega-Jolt does (which is really just the Meqa-squirt Extra code stuff)

    So what's the difference?

    -Bigger programmable table (16x16 instead of 12x12)
    -Bluetooth connection as well as serial.
    -Has the Ford EDIS Ignition drivers built in (no need for an EDIS module, I just need to connect a Ford / Bosch Coil pack, no idea at this stage if it will work in the limp home mode that the EDIS stuff does when the VR sensor fails but that's ok for my application)
    -Hardware buttons to set it up without a Laptop (can do everything from change the offset trigger angle to program the TPS)
    -Missing tooth need not be set at 90 degrees BTDC, (really just means more flexibility in installing)
    -Has launch control (just a rev hold hard cut for BANG BANG BANG FLAME FLAME FLAME activated by say a clutch switch)
    -Supports flat shift (same idea as the rev hold, keeping the throttle pinned the clutch switch will active the rev hold when changing gears.
    -Bluetooth allows for a digital dash via an Android App, (shows revs, and reports temps from sensors along with advance degrees)
    -Extra Aux output (has dedicated switch to activate say thermo fan, and has an additional switched ground to turn on what ever from any of the sensors. TPS, MAP, RPM, Oil / Water Temp, VTEC yo.

    Having said that, opening the software last night there is a command to import Megajolt ignition maps.. so, well, yeah, the similarities must run pretty deep...

    Anyway, It should work a treat. I paid $350 with a trigger wheel and a VR sensor. from a block out West, that's pretty good.

    Now to decide how I want to mount it, I could;

    -Get some washers and offset the alternator and water pumps, moving them out the width of the trigger plat and attach it behind the front pulley.
    -I could get a larger bolt and attach it to the front of the pulley, or weld it to the pulley I suppose.

    I'll get it up in the air and have a look to see what makes sense.
    SpacVee_Que
  • bowieDan (@bowie) Sydney
    edited June 2018
    Well managed to get the front pulley off without to much fan-fair honestly. I was expecting heat guns, torches, swearing. blood. Turns out it probably wasn't on that tight..

    Anyway the pulley is coming off in effort to mount up a trigger wheel for the ECU. Click below for a Renault pulley! OMG so excitement!

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/wou2HPvPJCcfbAn9A

    Within you can see I've already gone about mocking up how it should be mounted... 6mm worth of washes in four locations (just using the holes already on the 3mm steel trigger wheel) will clear the dish of the pulley (~5mm). I've went and ordered 4 x 6mm aluminium spacers (10mm OD 5mm ID, $2 from some 3D printing place) which will locate the trigger wheel at the front. I'll cut the hole in the middle out to 50mm, which will then provide enough room for the crank nut / starter dog, to be secured through the middle once more.

    So;

    -Pulley retained ala original
    -Trigger tethered to the pulley

    Before I start cutting however, I will have to check there is enough clearance to get a spanner onto the crank bolt in effort to undo and tighten with the trigger wheel located. If not, I'll just organize a longer Crank bolt, and tie everything together. I'll probably still secure the trigger wheel to the pulley with the 4 x M6's and spacers just because it might need less balancing that way? (I've seen some people just use one located bolt and be done with it)

    Now the sensor, more or less will need to be mounted at the 10 o'clock position (TDC mark on my engine is at 2 o'clock) The ECU I have has capacity to offset it 100 degrees +/- so I might located it ~6 o'clock just to keep it away from the hot side (7-10 o'clock), and the magnetic field created from the alternator (3 o'clock).

    Once that is done I've got a copy of the dizzy profile from factory for my engine, I'll load that into the ECU initially and work from there. I dare say it will stay like that for some time until I organise the Cam / Carbs and Compression, at which point I'll add a TPS for some fully sick 3D tuning.

    Oh speaking of Cams, I got a reply from Clive Cams in Melbourne, $220 to regrind the cam I have, and with the valve size's I gave him (33.5 in, 30 out) he recommended an A3 Cossworth grind more or less.

    Lobe Lift: .276"
    Advertised Duration: 305°
    Duration @ .050": 240°
    Phase Angle: 106.75°

    That should be ok using the larger 32/36 DGV, manifold and what ever compression I can get into the ol' thing once i get the head shaved. Others before me say 14:1 is possible as the water galleries are voluptuous. I'll aim for 11:1 me thinks, and If I bugger up the math and I end at 12:1, it should still be serviceable with 98 and programmable ignition... (currently 8.5:1). And that cam profile should be open enough to work with the 4 x 40mm carbs by the time I get a manifold sorted for that. (someone want to weld / organise me 4 x tubes, ~60mm in length, starting at 32mm growing out to 38mm~ please pretty please?)

    Since you asked. the bottom ends in these things are fine. Same conrods, pistons, bearings made it into the 5 Turbo's believe it or not.

    Frking agricultural reno's

    TO BE CONTINUED :)
    SpacVee_Que
  • SpacSpac (@Spac) Canberra-ish.
    At 60mm long, it should be fairly easy to cut a wedge out of a piece of pipe and reweld. Then die grind down any dags inside and reshape to round.
    Ex850R
  • Yes true, actually with how short they might end up, random pipe might be the trick to measure it all out and have an adult weld on to some flat bar, I wonder If I can simply flare out those ends?

    https://www.bunnings.com.au/arc-fences-1-8m-32nb-galvanised-steel-pipe_p1100592

    Cheap pipe will start as a mock up. :+1:
  • Ex850RSnoopy (@Ex850R) Somewhere Over the Rainbow. Melbourne.
    I'll see what we have.
  • Ah Spac I re-read what you said. Yes cut a wedge out, I can get all the tools in at 60mm.
    Spac
  • Well here goes nothing;

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/HsnK6pNERtYwpNBP8

    So you can see as the inlet ports are more or less siamese, I'm going to try and create "extensions" as the start of the manifold before it gets to the carbs, They will probably end up being 15, 20mm at the port diameter (~30mm) before I start to cut and expand it to meet the openings on the throttle bodies (~40mm)

    So it will sorta look like a dato 1200 SSS by the time it's done. I.E.

    https://d3lp4xedbqa8a5.cloudfront.net/imagegen/cp/black/800/600/s3/digital-cougar-assets/tradeuniquecars/gallerymedia/greg-murphy-2-datsun.jpg

    I wish!

    Best start to read / check what this is going to do to intake port speed having what, a 10mm growth in diameter in perhaps 40mm of length :S. The inlet runners may have to be a little longer yet.
    Vee_Que
  • bowieDan (@bowie) Sydney
    edited June 2018
    Well detouring into the ignition system

    Success!

    https://youtu.be/je2qT-2MqYo

    Look at that minimal amount of wobble. I mean considering I used a hand drill, drilling into the pulley horizontally, and I measured by eye, well I laid the trigger wheel over the top and "Jushed" it until it felt in the middle, Winner Winner Chicken Dinner.

    To add to the growing collection of trigger wheels on shitty ol' pulley's

    0PtAgRsh.jpg
    wqDkN77h.jpg
    CQUkpinh.jpg
    uQXqZPCh.jpg

    You will have to be looking carefully to see it to be honest, It might even get missed by the aging scrutineers .

    Anyway, mounting that was psychological stop before I bothered with everything else. Turns out even a "Bowie" could manage it.

    Oh! there is heeeeeeaps of lockthread on those non-nylon bolts, and I reckon I'll go get some nylon nuts and change it anyway because I'm tempting fate surely.
    Vee_Que
  • Well get a load of this cute bracket :p

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/MsQVy2E7VdubJL5r8

    Just look how cute it is

    So this is a tiny right angle, attaching to the front left hand sump bolt, with a 3mm spacer (just a square with a M6 hole in the middle) in height, and then pointed at the back of trigger wheel. The sump is attached with M6 bolts if you must no, as is the VR sensor.

    Fits rather snug I must say! Oh this is at it's longest setting, I'm going to remove that spacer and just add a couple of small washers to step it out a little bit because.. yeah things wobble I'm sure. From here I just have to attack everything with lock tight, and then wire everything up. Success!

    It looks fiddly, and it is, but all promise me the sensor is a crude bit of kit and should work within this setting
    Vee_Que
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