Building a high comp high revving NA 16v b230

Hey guys,

What's the recipe? For bench racing's sake, if i wanted to build a high compression naturally aspirated 16v motor (b234f head on a b230 bottom end), and have it rev up to 8000rpm, what would one be looking at in terms of parts and cost?

And, as I attempt to bump the static compression ratio higher, to say, 12:1 or more (assuming this is a fresh fully built motor), what would I be looking at and what should I be taking into consideration...

Cheers

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Comments

  • $6-10k for parts and machining

    if you want to rev that high just dump in a F20C and be done with it
    Klaptrap24Vee_Que
  • $6-10k for parts and machining

    What would be the difference between a $6k build and a $10k build?
  • if you want to rev that high just dump in a F20C and be done with it

    Engineering costs, custom drivetrain costs...would add up for a street car

  • if you want to rev that high just dump in a F20C and be done with it

    Engineering costs, custom drivetrain costs...would add up for a street car

    Would be less $ in the end
  • $6-10k for parts and machining

    What would be the difference between a $6k build and a $10k build?

    Fluctuations in available components and cost of engine builder time
    Also fluctuations in Aus$
    This is not just building an LS1 where everything is just off the shelf

    You need
    Crank
    Rods
    bearings
    pistons
    Good B230 with squirters
    timing belt adaption kit
    16v pulleys (adjustable)
    upgraded valve springs/retainers
    upgraded valves
    16v head
    Cams
    custom windage tray (optional but recommended)
    header
    intake
    exhaust
    EMS

    then tuning time ontop of everything else
    Klaptrap24
  • Costs will vary, depending if somebody's having a "wife told me to get rid of it" sale or you have to buy bits new.

    Basic Shopping List

    - The Yoshifab timing belt tensioner kit
    - the best kevlar timing belt which Yoshifab sells
    - set of CP pistons and JVAB rods like these, with reliefs cut into the pistons
    9H9tHYMh.jpg
    - one extra B234 cam wheel for putting on the b230 aux shaft
    - a B234 timing gear crank pulley
    - a plug for the distributor hole in the back of the 16V head, plus a plug retainer plate
    - set of new lifters which resist high RPM pump-up
    - improved valve springs, e.g Ford SVO V8 valve springs or Sealed Power VS1632.
    - the latest L block B230 you can find, with squiters
    - Melling M181 oil pump with iPD relief valve spring. The M181 is a high volume pump like the B230FT pumps.
    - Pair of Nuke B234 timing gears from DVS are highly recommended.
    - Hepu or better quality water pump
    - catch cans, gaskets, etc etc

    Variables

    1. Choice of ignition system?
    - wasted spark, or distributor
    - EZ-K based, or other system based, or fully manual based with distributor?
    - if keeping a distributor, you'll need a cut-down distributor and a "crab" style dizzy cap.
    - If going wasted spark, you don't need the dizzy any more. EZ-116K systems using wasted spark on LH 2.4 can work fine without one.
    - For 8000 RPM, you will likely need a chippable EZ-K or a daughter board which allows a fixed EZ-K to be chipped - see Bilsma Technical Innovations pages.

    2. Choice of EFI system?
    LH.24 or MS or other?
    IF LH 2.4, suitable flywheel needed
    IF other, check requirements of system
    ALL cases - larger injectors

    3. Choice of inlet manifold
    - standard B234 (ho hum)
    - converted B230 (poor but fits into tight spaces)
    - aftermarket (KL Racing)
    - alternative / custom (e.g. "Nathan in WA" manifold)

    General mechanical
    - balancing the reciprocating assembly is highly recommended
    - shot peening rods, etc, is highly recommended
    - getting the block decked is recommended
    - if the head you've acquired has any bent valves, it will also need new valve guides as well as valves
    - do some research on what the Swedes getting big power, like Erland Cox, are doing with their heads.
    Klaptrap24carnut222Vee_Quegoodenough
  • Thanks for that @bgpzfm142 , very comprehensive
    goodenough
  • SpacSpac @Spac Canberra-ish.
    edited April 2018
    There's a lot of difference between:
    1. Will rev to 8,000rpm;
    2. Will rev to 8,000rpm regularly and reliably;
    3. Will rev to 8,000rpm regularly & reliably while actually making useful power at those revs.

    Redblocks are big lumps of things. Short stroke for their capacity, but even the early B230s have heavy rotating assemblies - late ones are worse, B21/23s much worse again (although it does make for a very strong motor in turbo applications).
    I would also suggest that the counterbalanced B234 block could be the better choice for long term durability.

    Bob has covered most of it, but if you are aiming for Option 3, I would also add that you would almost certainly want ITBs, a good aftermarket ECU and custom extractors.
    Klaptrap24bgpzfm142Vee_Queegads
  • Option 3: 'Will rev to 8,000rpm regularly & reliably while actually making useful power at those revs.' - im assuming that'd require lightened balanced internals?

    i already have hurricane extractors on my b230f but i want to 16v and figured, if im going to have the head off and potentially have the motor out, may as well go hard or go home
  • Option 3: 'Will rev to 8,000rpm regularly & reliably while actually making useful power at those revs.' - im assuming that'd require lightened balanced internals?

    It demands light, balanced, and strong internals. Plus a suitably flowing exhaust system and mufflers. It will be an expensive exercise to do correctly.

    If your intent is building a NA 16V engine, you're best to do it as a separate exercise with a different block and leaving the existing engine alone, and then swapping the complete unit over when it's complete. That way, you still have a working car to go get parts and run around and minimum time off-road. Also, if you change your mind about the whole thing, a complete working vehicle and lots of nice parts are easier to sell than a non-running project.
    Klaptrap24[Deleted User]Ex850RVee_Quecarnut1100
  • jamesincJames @jamesinc Oz Volvo Ice Fortress
    Kevin man I like you, you have the best ideas, even if this is clearly the result of watching Initial D season 2 and hearing Bunta talk about Toyota's Group A modified 4A-GE.
    SpacKlaptrap24Vee_Queegadsgoodenough
  • SpacSpac @Spac Canberra-ish.
    Option 3: 'Will rev to 8,000rpm regularly & reliably while actually making useful power at those revs.' - im assuming that'd require lightened balanced internals?

    Yes. I expect that a stock crank will be ok, but stock rods and pistons will be a liability.

    A mate's rally car had a B230 with ported 531, aftermarket rods and pistons, quad throttle bodies, and all the rest.
    If my memory serves me, it went to 8k on the dyno, but there was no point - the power had peaked well before then. Basically, it was an Option2 motor, despite all of the money spent.

    That bottom end is now in Ross Kingham's 242GT rally car in SA, FWIW.


    A proper "Option3" Redblock will be a cantankerous pig at light throttle and at low revs.

    The twin cam head will be easier than an 8V one, but for a road or rally car, you'd get far better results by aiming for a 7,000rpm rev limit and trying to fill out the power curve as much as possible.
    Klaptrap24Vee_Quecarnut1100
  • Cant complain about that for a comprehensive answer
  • Kevin man I like you, you have the best ideas, even if this is clearly the result of watching Initial D season 2 and hearing Bunta talk about Toyota's Group A modified 4A-GE.

    i just like braaap
    timbojamesinc
  • Spac @Spac wrote: »
    Option 3: 'Will rev to 8,000rpm regularly & reliably while actually making useful power at those revs.' - im assuming that'd require lightened balanced internals?

    Yes. I expect that a stock crank will be ok, but stock rods and pistons will be a liability.

    A mate's rally car had a B230 with ported 531, aftermarket rods and pistons, quad throttle bodies, and all the rest.
    If my memory serves me, it went to 8k on the dyno, but there was no point - the power had peaked well before then. Basically, it was an Option2 motor, despite all of the money spent.

    That bottom end is now in Ross Kingham's 242GT rally car in SA, FWIW.


    A proper "Option3" Redblock will be a cantankerous pig at light throttle and at low revs.

    The twin cam head will be easier than an 8V one, but for a road or rally car, you'd get far better results by aiming for a 7,000rpm rev limit and trying to fill out the power curve as much as possible.

    What kind of numbers did the 8v build make?

    I think going for 7000rpm with a 2.5l bottom end and a good flowing head would still be great...but i figured if its not going to be a high revving screamer then going 16v turbo would be far more cost effective; but would most likely have to adapt to a t5 or cd00* transmission
  • Also, on a semi-related note; how much torque/hp is the standard 240 rear end good for?
  • Vee_QueVee_Que @Vee_Que South Eastern suburbs Melbourne.
    Grip is what kills the 1031.

    As bob and Nathan have covered, the need to rev to 8k is literally useless in the real world. Mike's price range is accurate.

    Budget for 3k just in an ecu, wiring and tuning if you can't do it yourself.

    If you wanted a budget build, a b230 with pistons and rods to get your 12:1, which means e85 only running, would be out of the question. Keep in mind the fuel range of e85 also.

    And given you'd be paying for the assembly, balancing, machining, etc etc, it's easily a 10k job. You'd make maybe 180kws at the wheels. A turbo swap on the b230 would easily do that for 2k on stock lh 2.4 with a chip.
    Klaptrap24

  • And given you'd be paying for the assembly, balancing, machining, etc etc, it's easily a 10k job. You'd make maybe 180kws at the wheels. A turbo swap on the b230 would easily do that for 2k on stock lh 2.4 with a chip.

    How long would a b230f+t last making that kind of power though? Assuming 300k unopened motor..

    Seems risky, though rebuilding a b230f with stronger internals for boost seems cheaper than building for high comp/high rpm NA - am I assuming correctly?
  • Vee_QueVee_Que @Vee_Que South Eastern suburbs Melbourne.
    Pretty much, a squirter block is likely to not have worn bores, so you can just do a re ring and new bearings, with a block deck and hone of the bores, plus you get a 531 head so you end up with 9.3:1 compression vs the 530 head which brings compression up around 0. 2 points to 9.5:1. Plus the need to drill the block for a 3/4 barb oil drain so a 5/16 thread should work. So it's almost all parts cost for a normal rebuild which does add up to $800 even with parts from fcp, but machining costs are lower. And the need for a turbo cam is there. Plus the cost of a decent turbo-a td05 20g or gt30 sized turbo is about right.

    But for a budget 16v, you could start with the same block, but get 16v pistons with the head and fit the correct matching ones as they do run different sizes to each bore, so assuming that is right, take a bit more off of the head and upgrade the valve springs. (though I'm sceptical about the Ford springs), run the pz cams, and of course the yoshifab 16v kit. You would have spent $1500 over an engine refresh(not including the turbo Costs). It will rev out pretty well and be fun to drive. Of course you can use a megasquirt to suit lh 2.4 that linuxman sells, start with a base map and go from there, but that is still $1000~ aud.

    The issue with 16v is the head occupies the same space as the clutch master cylinder. Jared has worked out a way to fix that though.
    Klaptrap24serk
  • Pretty much, a squirter block is likely to not have worn bores, so you can just do a re ring and new bearings, with a block deck and hone of the bores, plus you get a 531 head so you end up with 9.3:1 compression vs the 530 head which brings compression up around 0. 2 points to 9.5:1. Plus the need to drill the block for a 3/4 barb oil drain so a 5/16 thread should work. So it's almost all parts cost for a normal rebuild which does add up to $800 even with parts from fcp, but machining costs are lower. And the need for a turbo cam is there. Plus the cost of a decent turbo-a td05 20g or gt30 sized turbo is about right.

    But for a budget 16v, you could start with the same block, but get 16v pistons with the head and fit the correct matching ones as they do run different sizes to each bore, so assuming that is right, take a bit more off of the head and upgrade the valve springs. (though I'm sceptical about the Ford springs), run the pz cams, and of course the yoshifab 16v kit. You would have spent $1500 over an engine refresh(not including the turbo Costs). It will rev out pretty well and be fun to drive. Of course you can use a megasquirt to suit lh 2.4 that linuxman sells, start with a base map and go from there, but that is still $1000~ aud.

    The issue with 16v is the head occupies the same space as the clutch master cylinder. Jared has worked out a way to fix that though.

    Great info Alex, thanks for that. I have @jamesinc old td05-12g that is calling for a cheap +t...
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