OldnDecrepit
As many know I am the proud owner of a 164 but the downside is that it has a 3sp auto box. While I don't want a manual, I would like to reduce the high revs that the engine does to cruise the highway. At 100kph the engine is doing 3000rpm. My other Volvos all would cruise closer to 2500rpm.
One option to improve the car is to replace the 3sp box with a later 4sp. This is expensive and is fraught with other problems so I was wondering of it might be possible to improve the gearing in the drive train by other methods.
Two readily spring to mind.
The first is to change the ratios in the B35 box when it is refurbished. So maybe gear 2nd and third so it doesn't do so many rpm. Is this possible? Does it have bad consequences for the rest of the drive train?
The second is to change the diff ratios. Once again, is this possible? Does it have bad consequences for the rest of the drive train?
Those who have much more extensive knowledge & experience might like to share.
Philia_Bear
I thought there was an easy conversion to use the electronic aw 30-40 from a 960 in it?
Paddle shift auto 164 would rock
OldnDecrepit
Philia_Bear;129025 wroteI thought there was an easy conversion to use the electronic aw 30-40 from a 960 in it?
Paddle shift auto 164 would rock
News to me.
Major Ledfoot
This gentleman in the Netherlands does an adapter to change an AW71 from a 760 to a 164.
http://www.hukebasart.nl/huke/en/?Clutchhouses
It's not cheap at approximately 210 Euros.
But maybe
@Vee_Que can put something together - as I have a surplus B30-flavoured BW35, and a dead AW71, ideal for use in measurements and experiments...
OldnDecrepit
Thanks @bgpzfm142. I would definitely like to put the 4sp auto in rather than recondition a BW35. But I still wonder if either of my two options are viable.
Spac
Do you know what ratio is in the diff now?
Depending on what you have, swapping the ratio is either cheap and easy or impossible (in practical terms).
You could do use a late manual 240 with its 3.31 ratio, but being a 1031 instead of a 1030, you'll have to do a whole diff swap rather than just a ratio swap.
Or my preferred option would be to swap the 164 axle tubes into the 240 centre. This requires some skilled work, but should be cheaper and easier than swapping mounting brackets.
A 4-speed auto would give a better outcome overall. Just depends on the cost and how original you want it to look.
OldnDecrepit
My preference would be the 4sp auto but so far none of the options seems easy or cheap.
Vee_Que
I've yet to get the auto etc needed for a swap as I know there is interest.
But a diff ratio swap is the simplest way currently.
OldnDecrepit
@Vee_Que
If I can source one would you be willing to do the swap for me? It would be a paying job of course.
1971_144GL
Interesting to see this thread. I had been thinking about doing the same conversion based on the information at:
http://www.v1800reg.org/pages/AW70%20CONV.PDF
A new diff ratio is easy based on the Yukon gears site, however it was not the long term or nice solution I was after. A four speed was my preferred option. The only engineering question seems to be what happens when the adapter plate shifts back the transmission by the adapter plate thickness from the crank. I was pondering if fitting an adapter ring behind the flex plate - and questioning what impact that this might have by hanging the rotating mass of the torque converter an extra 20 mm out from the back end of the crank.
I still think it would be a nice and practical conversion for a 164 - could really make the car. But I am still torn between this, and the idea of an M410 conversion. As usual not making up my mind delays projects. Depending on how serious you get about AW70 conversion we should maybe talk. Having the adapter plate is much cheaper if a couple are done - it is the setup costs. I have also done welded bell housing combinations like in the Netherlands, but it is not as pretty as the adapter. and risk of weld failure. I will probably be in the Netherlands again in a couple of months, so part transport is a possibility - but probably about the same amount of trouble to cut and weld here. In the end the project will inevitable end up costing a bit - for a car with linited Australian market value. But my first car memories of a BW35 164E are not that inspiring. Also chatting with
@bigal about his BW35 issues. Clearly there are better, sympathetic conversion options if pure original is not essential.
Dauntless
Do commonly available Dana 30 R&P fit in a 1030? They're generally available up to 3.07:1 and require no fabrication.
Vee_Que
I like the aw71 box, but doing a conversion with the 960 style box(used to this day in Thai built Ute's with 5 speeds instead) would be simpler other then the obvious issue of the electronic control on a car that is a cruiser.
Welding a bellhousing is not a worry for strength Imo, but setting up the right lengths is the fun bit.
Also there is an electronic Aw71 available in later lexus models, so that is an option once I've had one apart to see if it has more clutches etc for my purposes.
Major Ledfoot
@1971_144GL, Huke Basart's adapter ring for the B20 to AW7x just allows the rotation of the 'bellhousing' part of the AW7* transmission, so that the non-vertical mounting angle of the B21/B230 engine families isn't an issue. The B21 / B230 engine families have the same bellhousing pattern as the B18 and B20.
The short story to fitting these adapter rings is basically to remove part of the existing AW7x 'bellhousing' which is the same thickness as the adapter ring, and then attach bolts from bellhousing to ring, and bolts from transmission to ring. Which means you don't have to worry about having that 20mm additional thickness of an adapter plate (as you mentioned) between the torque converter bellhousing and the block. The AW7x ends up being the same total length because of the design of the adapter ring, meaning you can use an off-the-shelf tailshaft from a 240 in a 140 that's been converted.
The B30? It's a different animal altogether. The bellhousing pattern is unique to it (as we know), so any adapter ring setup for an AW7x (AW71 recommended) would possibly need to use the 'bellhousing' part of the old BW35 trans, or maybe a bellhousing from an old Penta AQ170 (i.e. marine B30).
Maybe I ought to send @Vee_Que the bellhousing part of a B30 on the next Bruce Express to Melbourne, if he doesn't have one handy.
1971_144GL
Thank you for the input. I have an AW71 and 164 bw35 sitting outside cars. I better do some more looking and thinking. Perhaps cut and weld is the answer. A specialist alloy tipped parting tool and a big old slow lathe does a good job of the bell housing cut down. The alloy also welds easily from memory, following pre heating.
Dauntless
There really is a market for custom made steel bellhousings, somebody should get on that.
If adapting a transmission, an Aisin from a Volvo or Toyota is probably no easier than many other options. Is the standard diff ratio 3.54? If so, an AW72L from a 740 16V might give a bit better acceleration while also offering a nice overdrive ratio.
A 3.08 ring and pinion would be the least work. Yukon YG D30-308 is possibly the correct part, but do your own research.
Major Ledfoot
The AW72L in Volvo guise is geared more towards an engine which revs hard and has peak torque at about 4500 RPM, and IMO that doesn't describe the B30. The big 6 does its peak torque of 170 lb ft at 2500 RPM and holds this figure pretty much dead flat till about 4200, after which it begins to fall away, dropping to about 150 lb ft at 5500 RPM, where it's rated at 160 BHP DIN.
The core problem here, from reading the first post, is that the revs are too high in top gear at highway speeds. So, changing the ratios in 1st and 2nd isn't gonna do much to change that, and 3rd in a BW35 is gonna be 1:1 no matter what you do. Just like 4th in an M410 is also gonna be 1:1. So neither of those proposals will fix the core issue - i.e. reducing revs at highway speeds.
If you change the diff ratio to something taller, sure, you'll reduce revs at highway speeds and reduce fuel consumption (in theory), but it's gonna be a slug off the line. It's also likely your fuel consumption will increase around town, because you'll be kicking down to 2nd (or 1st!) just to get past the traffic gnats whereas in the past, you could probably hold 3rd to do this.
So it seems to me that an AW71 or similar swap is the ideal way to both retain low speed performance, and cut the revs at highway cruising speeds. It's not the easiest solution, but there are only gains without any losses or compromises.
OldnDecrepit
I agree @bgpzfm142 and the 4sp auto is my preferred option rather than refurbish my current BW35. I need to get a suitable unit and someone to install it.
I'm trying to explore other, possibly cheaper options.
Spac
Dauntless;129067 wroteDo commonly available Dana 30 R&P fit in a 1030? They're generally available up to 3.07:1 and require no fabrication.
Yes and no.
Non-Volvo Dana30 use different crown wheel offsets < 3.54 vs 3.54+.
All Volvo (1030 and 1031) use the 3.54+ offset, regardless of ratio.
What this means is that you can't use any aftermarket ratio taller than 3.54 in a Volvo diff.
I can't recall if an auto 164 has 3.7 or 3.54 standard - in any case, changing from 3.7 to 3.54 isn't going to give the change he needs.
Rob
Spac;129123 wroteDauntless;129067 wroteDo commonly available Dana 30 R&P fit in a 1030? They're generally available up to 3.07:1 and require no fabrication.
Yes and no.
Non-Volvo Dana30 use different crown wheel offsets < 3.54 vs 3.54+.
All Volvo (1030 and 1031) use the 3.54+ offset, regardless of ratio.
What this means is that you can't use any aftermarket ratio taller than 3.54 in a Volvo diff.
I can't recall if an auto 164 has 3.7 or 3.54 standard - in any case, changing from 3.7 to 3.54 isn't going to give the change he needs.
pretty certain it will be 3.54
Dauntless
Spac;129123 wroteDauntless;129067 wroteDo commonly available Dana 30 R&P fit in a 1030? They're generally available up to 3.07:1 and require no fabrication.
Yes and no.
Non-Volvo Dana30 use different crown wheel offsets < 3.54 vs 3.54+.
All Volvo (1030 and 1031) use the 3.54+ offset, regardless of ratio.
What this means is that you can't use any aftermarket ratio taller than 3.54 in a Volvo diff.
I can't recall if an auto 164 has 3.7 or 3.54 standard - in any case, changing from 3.7 to 3.54 isn't going to give the change he needs.
It's entirely possible for an aftermarket R&P to be available in a ratio taller than 3.54 to suit a 3.73 and lower Jeep carrier, though I'm not sure if such a product actually exists.
If the standard ratio is 3.54 (like 240 w/ BW55) then 3.08 would probably be the only ratio worth using. It wouldn't be a rocket ship, but 3 speed Falcons were 2.92 weren't they?