user48736353002
Evening all.
I'm considering becoming a local reseller of Megasquirt ECUs and parts with a focus on building them to suit 240/740s.
I'd like to know if there are many people here that are considering going the Megasquirt route on their RWD Volvos in the near future.
I'm looking at selling the entire DIYAUTOTUNE range, plus ECUs assembled to suit specific needs, including mods and upgrades (eg. onboard bluetooth connectivity is simply an awesome addition).
If anybody wants any kits or parts from the DIYAUTOTUNE website, I will be ordering lots of stuff soon, so jumping in on my order may save on postage.
https://www.diyautotune.com
I'm not looking at becoming an installer, but will be able to make adapter looms to make the initial setup simple and reversible if people are interested.
Cheers
Vee_Que
Bartune is a local reseller, and seems to do ok for mx5 market.
Volvo guys, are not as happy to spend money. Would you be cheaper than diyautotune once landed? That would be the only reason to buy u.s product locally. Particularly if you're not doing installations etc.
If you go after the ls market, I think you'd have some success.
Vee_Que
If you were to do an adaptor like linuxman has been doing for years, he doesn't do the lh 2.2 ones for some reason, probably due to failing wiring
user48736353002
Man, I wish I was doing Megasquirt ECUs when I had an MX5! I sold mine to a friend who I'm building a MS3 for very soon.
I find myself recommending Megasquirt ECUs as great upgrade for stock or modified cars and then realise that not everyone trusts their soldering ability enough to take the plunge. I figure that offering a service specific to engines that I'm familiar with is a good way to pay for a hobby.
If Volvo people aren't as happy to spend money as others, then they sound like my kind of people! This would be a side venture for me, so ideally it will be a hobby that doesn't cost anything. If I learn something or have an ability, nothing gives me greater joy than sharing it.
I absolutely expect that buying locally from me will be cheaper than importing yourself, but the actual parts or kits prices will match the DIYAUTOTUNE prices. The savings and benefits will be in cheaper shipping prices and local delivery times. Also local support specific to my expertise in Volvo fuel injection common in Australia would be another bonus.
I'll move into LS territory if I end up with one (it's on my list). This all started when I bought a caravan, and my 240 wagon struggled to pull it up hills. I was considering a V8, and then decided that it was easier/cheaper/quicker to make the current LH2.2 engine make enough power by adding a turbo and a Megasquirt ECU. It's my personal/business car so I didn't like the idea of it being off the road long. The result is the fastest and most reliable car I've ever owned. I've caught the Volvo bug.
My conversion started as an adapter loom for my LH2.2 car, which came in handy when I wasn't prepared to tow the van with an experimental Megasquirt install. I was able to revert to stock in minutes. I came back from a safe trip and was able to continue on with the tuning.
If someone has a LH2.2 that runs, even with questionable biodegradable wiring, an adapter loom would be the first step in converting to Megasquirt. Once it's proven to run, replacing all or modifying the wiring and committing to Megasquirt is a weekend job. Thankfully I have in possession (and access to) a LH2.2 + turbo, a bone stock LH2.2 and a LH2.4 Volvo 240.
Tree
I'm lukewarmly interested! Eventually I want to replace all my wiring and benefit from weight reduction too.
I say lukewarmly because I came across something called "Speeduino" few months back which is basically an Arduino turned into an ECU. Some MX-5 guys an Aus are running them. They are very cheap and open source. Would be a big learning curve and time investment but learning coding is probably worth something these days.
gavinh
Sounds interesting, but I'm running kjet but would have to upgrade head, manifold, wiring etc, would depend on costs?
Philia_Bear
Head and manifold are fine, just some new wiring and a tiny bit of work for bosch injectors to work in kjet holes
@VolvoHordz has details on how bosh injectors work in the kjet holes
volvodriverman
Piqued interest here.
user48736353002
Great to hear that there is some interest! I'll post some more details on the products and services I hope to offer, and maybe some ballpark pricing as well later tonight. The different versions of Megasquirt hardware can be confusing, so I'll make the options available as simple and relevant to B230 engines as possible.
While driving around this morning I thought I'd load up the Shadow Dash MS app on my phone and grab a screenshot. With the internal bluetooth mod you don't need to prepare anything to check on your engine, just open the app on your phone or tablet.
Bork
I'm interested too, want to get rid of the fuel cut off/boost cut off in my B230ET powered brick
Vee_Que
That's easy to do @Bork, just disconnect the hose under the dash to the ignition ecu sensor.
Why would you offer a v2.2 board instead of a pre assembled v3 board for? If they can be done on a production line, imo, there is going to be less Chance of a failure vs assembled in a shed kits.
Vee_Que
Did you manage to make the idle air motor circuit work with your car? I could be interested in doing the install work too
GingerNinja
Interested to hear the prices.
Who can help you tune it though? I don't know if any of the local dyno shops are keen on Megasquirt.
user48736353002
@Vee_Que I plan to offer the entire range, including preassembled versions from DIYAUTOTUNE, unassembled kits and kits assembled by me to suit specific needs of the engine. I'll make a post tonight detailing the pros and cons of each CPU version and each Motherboard version. All these similar sounding version numbers make it confusing. We're talking about LH2.2 and LH2.4 being the version of fuel injection on the Volvo motors, and then there are Megasquirt motherboard V2.2, V3.0 and V3.57, and on top of that there are 3 CPUs that go in those motherboards V1, V2 and V3. I'll go in to more detail later.
I wouldn't be considering assembling ECUs if I wasn't completely sure of my soldering ability - I worked on much more fiddly circuits every day for around 6 years as my previous job. I will be guaranteeing all of my work. My shed is full of Volvo parts, so I'll probably have to use my current electronics repair area ;)
As for the Idle Control Valve, I read about a dodgy way to run the LH2.2 3-wire ICV and wasn't interested, so I built my Megasquirt motherboard to suit the LH2.4 2 wire ICV for when I install one in the future. In the meantime I bypassed the ICV and used the idle screw on the throttle body to set the idle. You probably wouldn't get away with that with an Auto though. I have the LH2.4 ICV ready to go on now, but I didn't realise that they were different sizes and didn't get the bracket. Next time I see a LH2.4 at a wrecking yard I'll grab the bracket and install it.
@GingerNinja I haven't had taken my car anywhere to be tuned yet, mostly because my goals of being able to tow a caravan were met quite easily. To properly tune the ignition timing map you need to have access to a dyno - but you can generate or copy a timing map and make adjustments to keep the engine happy (at your own risk!!). If you're not really familiar with the sound of detonation and what causes it, and can't afford a new motor, then leave it to an expert. Worth mentioning that there is a great add-on for the MS3 CPU that adds some pretty neat knock detection. I've had a lot of experience with the IC that it's built around and I'm very excited to get one for myself (next order). Having that will give you a lot more protection from doing something silly.
As for tuning the fuel map, I would highly recommend getting a wideband O2 sensor and controller for your car to compliment the Megasquirt. At the very least get a O2 bung installed in your exhaust in a suitable location to let you borrow a wideband O2 sensor temporarily. With the wideband O2 sensor and the Tunerstudio MS software you can turn Autotune on and go for drive and it takes care of the fuel tables. You just set what target AFR you what for RPM and load (or just leave it the way it's set by default) and it makes adjustments to fuel to match. I've re-tuned the fuel map so many times and it couldn't be simpler. Once Autotune is turned off, the Megasquirt will constantly make little adjustments to try to meet the AFR target. You can see in the screenshot from my phone above that the target at idle is 14.7, and the reading coming back from the O2 sensor is 14.6.
Angus242164
A bit off-topic, but there is no separate ignition ECU on a B230ET, Motronic is so called because one ECU controls fuel and spark.
There are two safety cut-outs, one is an overboost cut, with a pressure sensor on the pedal box that cuts power to the fuel pump once a certain pressure is exceeded. The easiest way around this is to join the two wires running to the sensor, on my car this had been done many years before I got it, possibly by a dealer, so perhaps the sensors had problems from new.
The other cut-out is within the ECU. When it senses an implausible amount of air going through the airflow meter for a given RPM, it cuts the injectors. It's pretty sensitive and only allows a couple of PSI of increased boost before it starts pissing you off. The only way around this is to alter the ECU's programming, by fitting an alternative chip. I used a "Viking" chip years ago on my 760T to get around this.
Bork
Thanks Angus, will investigate further, where did you source a Viking chip?
Angus242164
I actually got mine from a guy called Calvin (I think) in Malaysia, he was acting as a distributor of a brand of strut braces and was bringing a few other Volvo performance bits into Malaysia about 8-10 years ago, not sure if he's still around these days. The chips were also available from some companies in Europe.
My chip will eventually be surplus to requirements, but possibly not for another year or more.
If you have any Motronic questions you can always send me a PM, I've spent quite a bit of time working on the system on 760 Turbos and on early Porsches.
user48736353002
I've worked out a rough price guide for what I should be able to supply assembled Megasquirt ECUs to suit Volvo's with LH2.2 or LH2.4 EFI. These prices are estimates and are not final, but should help anyone work out if moving to Megasquirt is within their price range. I will be happy to answer any questions in this thread or in a private message.
Megasquirt MS2 with MS3.0 motherboard (assembled and ready to wire in):
$700 AUD delivered.
Megasquirt MS3 with MS3.0 motherboard (assembled and ready to wire in):
$850 AUD delivered.
This is not plug and play and does not include an adapter loom or any wiring (though it does include the DB37 plug to solder your loom into). Adapter looms and upgrades or modifications will be optional extras and I'll work on getting prices in the near future.
Comparitively, if you were to purchase directly from DIYAUTOTUNE with today's exchange rate, the same items (or closest equivelant) assembled by DIYAUTOTUNE and delivered would cost:
Megasquirt MS2 with MS3.0 motherboard (assembled but requiring modifications to suit LH2.2 or LH2.4):
$680 AUD delivered.
Megasquirt MS3 with MS3.57 motherboard (assembled but requiring modifications to suit LH2.2 or LH2.4 - 3.57 motherboard doesn't come with prototyping area and makes additional mods like internal bluetooth connectivity less viable):
$860 AUD delivered.
All ECUs will be set up with a safe base tune to get started.
Simplified MS2 and MS3 pros and cons for use on 4 cyl Volvo.
MS2 Pros:
- Cheaper initial investment
- Upgrading to MS3 CPU only requires plugging in new CPU. Wiring is the same
- Can be modified to connect to laptop or phone via Bluetooth (for tuning/logging)
MS2 Cons:
- No USB connection (although you can get an external Serial to USB adapter)
- No onboard SD card logging (you can still log via Serial to a laptop, or via bluetooth to laptop or phone or tablet)
- Can not add official Knock/Detonation/Ping detection circuit without upgrading to MS3 CPU. Other options are available such as Knocksense, but the official Knock Module uses time windowing to greatly improve knock detection accuracy.
MS3 Pros:
- Onboard SD card logging
- Has USB connection as well as serial connection to connect to laptop for tuning/logging
- Can be modified to connect to laptop or phone via Bluetooth (for tuning/logging)
- Can add official Knock/Detonation/Ping detection circuit featuring time windowing.
MS3 Cons:
- $150 more expensive (although buying the MS3 CPU alone to upgrade from MS2 costs around $330 AUD. I may offer a trade in price for MS2 CPU to lower upgrade cost)
General Pros and Cons of moving to Megasquirt:
Pros:
- Airflow meter is no longer required. New genuine replacements are very expensive. Used ones are still reasonably expensive but also used. They are common causes of poor running and poor fuel economy, and often the reason why an engine is barely running at all (how I bought my first volvo).
- Can tune to get the most out of any modification. Compliment modifications instead of fighting the factory ECU (think changing fuel requirements, boost limits, stock ignition curves that are no longer the best for your engine, rev limit etc)
- All engine stats can be viewed and logged. Great for engine safety when adding a turbocharger etc. No more guessing.
- Ability to convert to E85 fuel, or with a flex sensor run either normal or E85 fuel and get the best out of both
- New engine control features such as launch control, anti-lag etc
Cons:
- There will always be things you never thought about that you will need to learn. Getting things like idle control and warmup enrichment to work as well as stock will take some work, but there is so much info online about Megasquirting Volvo's that you will be in good company
- You will need an air temp sensor added to the intake. Not required for testing before commiting to Megasquirt, but essential for tuning properly. Costs around $30 new but needs to be installed in intake piping close to intake manifold
- Changing ECU to a Megasquirt will make your car unroadworthy - so this is a 'track only' modification. I'm sure most people reading this already have some modification that pushes the boundary of what is legal, but keep this in mind.
Extra expenses:
Tunerstudio MS software for the PC is free, and you can log and tune manually with no problems. To purchase the full version is around $80 AUD which enables you to Autotune while driving with a wideband O2 sensor. Not required initially but recommended.
A Wideband O2 sensor and controller is highly recommended for tuning and fuel trimming while driving. An Innovation kit costs around $300, but worth every penny. The O2 sensor bung needs to be installed in exhaust pipe under the car to screw the O2 sensor into. Alternatively, just getting a O2 sensor bung installed in the exhaust with a screw in plug lets you temporarily install an O2 sensor from a mate or a Dyno shop for tuning.
Shadow Dash MS app for android is around $14 AUD and again worth every penny. You can create custom dashboards to view current engine info (see screenshot in previous post), log data to view in Tunerstudio MS later, save and load tunes on the go. Bluetooth mod or adapter required.
LH2.2 and LH2.4 cars don't have an analog Throttle Position Sensor (TPS). They have a switch that closes when the throttle is closed, and a switch that closes when the throttle is wide open. Acceleration enrichment is something that engines need when you push your foot on the accelerator, so that there is enough fuel to meet the sudden demand of the extra load. There are two ways of setting up acceleration enrichment, via manifold air pressure (MAP) or via analog TPS. For a somewhat plug and play reversible installation, relying on the MAP sensor is fine, though changing to an analog TPS is better as the ECU is able predict what's coming rather than wait for a change in air pressure - closer to a carburetor having an accelerator pump. There are a couple of easy options for changing to an analog TPS using wrecking yard parts. Volvo 850s have an analog TPS with the same plug, but needs to be clocked differently and either spaced out or have the post from the throttle body cut shorter to fit (this is what I've done). LH3.1 cars have an analog TPS and so you can take the whole throttle body with TPS if you can find one. I haven't come across one in wrecking yards to date. An extra bonus of upgrading to an analog TPS is that you get to log your throttle position along with all the other engine data.
Wiring:
Megasquirt ECUs come with the DB37 plug to wire your existing loom into. This costs nothing if you are capable of doing the work and your existing wiring is in good condition (ie not suffering the biodegradeable insulation issues known to occur in pre 89 Volvo's). If your engine loom is falling apart, installing a Megasquirt with new wiring is a great way to solve a problem while upgrading.
Adapter looms:
I plan on offering adapter looms so that you can test the Megasquirt ECU on your LH2.2 or LH2.4 in a reversable manner. I say "test" as I wouldn't consider it the best way to install a Megasquirt ECU, but as a great way to keep your car drive-able while you get the Megasquirt setup and running well enough to commit fully.
There are elements of the LH2.2 and LH2.4 fuel injection of the Volvo 240/740/940 etc that make "plug-n-play" difficult for these reasons:
- LH2.2 has an idle control valve that is difficult to control. For testing this is OK, as it will idle fine when warmed up with adjustment to idle knob on throttle body and you can revert back to stock ECU. When committing to Megasquirt, changing to the LH2.4 ICV (and bracket) is the way to go if you want the Megaquirt to be able to control idle speed.
- Both LH2.2 and LH2.4 fuel injection have a separate computer to control ignition and fuel. The adaptor loom plugs into the fuel ecu plug, but some extra wiring needs to run to the coil or ignition amplifier to control spark. LH2.2 needs some wires plugged in in place of the Chrysler computer to feed power to the trigger sensor in the distributor - and I'm sure similar hacks will be required for the LH2.4 version (yet to be developed/tested).
Vee_Que
740ts use a different icu also.
What about microsquirt? Yes its pre assembled, but I personally don't care for a Bluetooth logging screen. My car does fine currently without that.
So you didn't change the tps to an 850 one? I recall that being quite important.
Angus242164
It's worth mentioning that although MS2 has no built in knock detection/control, it does have an input for a knock signal. You can use a Knocksense MS unit connected to a stock Volvo/Bosch knock sensor, and connect it's output signal to MS. You can also use a Saab APC ECU to do the same thing, but they're a big old ECU which is probably getting hard to find these days.
It's also worth being aware that MS isn't EPA legal (and therefore not roadworthy) in most states, because it allows the engine tune to be altered, and therefore allows the user to make adjustments that might make the engine pollute more than it's allowed to under the applicable ADR's.
Aftermarket ECU's can be made legal by tuning them to pass an emissions test, and then having the case permanently sealed to prevent further adjustment. The process can cost up to $10K I'm told. This is probably becoming a bit antiquated now that ECU's have bluetooth connectivity built in.
This doesn't bother most people too much, they either just do it anyway, or do a "stealth" install and keep everything looking close to original under the bonnet, no highway patrol office would know what an old Volvo is supposed to look like under the bonnet anyway.