alphax
Hello All,
I recently purchased an '83 240 with a running engine and had it transported from WA to VIC.
Extremely well kept car, 90k on the clock, very original.
It drove onto the truck in WA no problems, running okay.
Car arrives in Melb on the train.
Only just makes it onto local truck, runs rough, spits some oil out from front of engine somewhere.
Won't restart. Just cranks. Engine still has plenty of oil in it.
Car is rolled off truck at my house.
Engine cranks, tries to fire, but won't start.
Does not appear to be leaking oil anymore!
So far I have:
- Bypassed fuel pump relay to ensure it has fuel. It does. Fuel is fresh. Pumps are working great.
- Check all vacuum lines, bellows, connections, all checks out okay.
- Checked plug lead order
- Checked and cleaned all grounds inc. ground wire for Bosch ignition control unit.
- Cleaned coil terminals
- Wire brushed fuse number 13
- Replaced Spark plugs
- Checked for engine compression, is present in all 4 cylinders.
- Checked for spark at the spark plug tip. It has spark.
MAJOR SYMPTOM: Engine tries to fire when engine is cranking over but will not continue to run.
Cranking just gets faster and faster while it's trying to fire and then dies when key is released.
If I continue to try to start or touch the throttle, it floods.
I understand the oil leak might be related to the flame-trap. Could this be related to the starting issue also?
Any ideas would be super appreciated!
I just need the car moveable for now, as the car will be used for an engine conversion within a month or so.
Thanks!
user48736353002
Does it have a AFM/AMM? If so, unplug the cable and see if it starts.
alphax
No, I wish! My '83 is k-jet mechanical injection which is something I have never dealt with in much detail...
Angus242164
I wonder if it has a massive air leak. Do you have access to a smoke machine?
Have seen the same symptoms on a K-Jet 240 on dual fuel, it backfired when running on gas and dislodged the rubber bellows from the K-Jet unit causing a massive air leak post metering flap.
If you crank it with the pedal on the floor, does it make any difference?
alphax
If I touch the throttle, it will give up trying to fire and end-up flooding the engine. I have verified this by pulling the spark-plugs out. Fuel smell. Wet plugs.
I've had the bellows out and was very careful to replace it without air leaks and I ensured all of the vacuum lines are connected and that none are cracked/damaged. Not sure about the flame trap though.
I've briefly tried cranking it with the pedal on the floor and it only seems to make it flood quicker and crank slower. I had hoped it would clear the flood condition, but does not appear so.
gavinh
Do you have a big spark at the plugs? Have you a spare coil to swap over?
alphax
The spark looks big in the dark! haha.. I don't have a spare coil, no... but you're right, might be a good option to try one.
So frustrating. All I need is for it to run so I can move it around, and it almost wants to start up!
robv
Have u checked the cam timing? Timing may have slipped?
If it's flooding, will it start if you turn the fuel pump off?
Also unplug the cold start injector, might help with flooding.
Anthony
So it cranks like a beauty. So something is not switching over to let the ignition circuit to fire from crank to run?
Therefore check down at the starter motor to see if the small tab wire is attached and hasn't fallen off. The wiring insulation back then dissolved badly so check back about 50mm it's OK.
Hope the ignition switch has not developed an issue.
Otherwise you will need to go back to basics and pull some injectors to verify their spraying.
If not swap in a known fuel relay as they definitely can stop a motor dead, or remove it and pry out of plastic case and have a look at the solder joints.
Also verify ignition as per service manual techniques.
And lots of good luck.
Angus242164
It sounds like the flooding is a major clue, it could be the cause of the no-start, or it could be a symptom of no combustion occurring.
If it's getting way too much fuel (K-Jet fuel distributor metering plunger stuck, cold start injector stuck open, cold start injector being triggered when it shouldn't be, excessive fuel pressure) then it should start if you give it heaps of air (wide open throttle) as you are matching the amount of air to the excessive amount of fuel.
So, the amount of fuel entering the engine may in fact be normal, but due to no combustion you're seeing that on the plugs.
Since you have compression, you may have a weak spark. It takes a lot more energy for a spark to jump the gap in the spark plug under pressure of compression, than it does in the open atmosphere, so looking for spark outside the engine shows that there is spark, but doesn't show how powerful it is.
I have seen a Saab with the centre contact in the distributor cap missing, it had enough spark to run OK under all conditions except cold starting, when the spark at the plugs wasn't strong enough for the engine to start, and it would flood after a few seconds of cranking.
It wouldn't hurt to take the timing cover off and verify the position of the crank, cam and rotor button with the engine at TDC on #1 as well, to rule out timing belt issues.
alphax
Thanks guys, I will look into these great suggestions in some depth today and let you know my finding's. Thanks again
alphax
Ok, the plot thickens. I removed a spark plug and cranked it with the lead attached. Brilliant Blue spark. Nice,
HOWEVER....
After a few cranks, it stopped sparking.. and as it did, I noted the cranking speed slightly slowed... the spark came back briefly, then stopped all together. So it has intermittently firing ignition it seems. What is causing this I am not sure yet.. It seems reasonable that the cause of the flooding might well be lack of consistent spark (no combustion).
I can feel the cool blast of fuel vapour on my face as it cranks over without the sparkplug haha.
I also briefly bypassed the ceramic ballast resistor, just to see if it makes any difference to spark and it did not.
I will run through the ignition system later when I have some time and check cam timing etc to confirm that rotor in the dizzy is turning at all times... you never know.
Hopefully the ignition unit is not kaput or anything else too serious.. Just need this to vaguely run.
Thanks all for the great help on this Gents.
Angus242164
If the high tension side of the ignition appears OK and the dizzy is correctly positioned and rotating correctly, it's probably an issue on the trigger side of the ignition system, ie: the pickup coil in the dizzy, ignition module, or wiring harness.
It's most likely a wiring issue, the engine wiring on these cars is craptacular, there is probably a fault with the wiring between the dizzy and the module. It runs under the crank pulley at the front of the sump, it's just two wires so it's easy to test for open circuits, short between the two wires, and short to ground via the block using a multi meter.
If you do end up needing a dizzy or ignition module let me know, I have those here.
alphax
Thanks Angus, we have progress, of sorts.
Hmmm pays to check the basics doesn't it? I removed the distributor cap and h/t lead and cranked the engine to see if 1) spark was present from the output of the coil and 2) if the rotor is turning in the dizzy cap.
There was a nice blue spark emitting from the coil. Just one. On initial cranking of the engine.
But imagine my surprise when I found the rotor wasn't turning whatsoever!!
I cannot move the distributor by hand (just the advance mechanism moves), so it appears to be engaged with whatever drives it.
Time to pull the timing cover off I think!
Angus242164
That's an odd one, I'll be keen to hear what you discover.
alphax
I would suggest the timing belt is broken. I turned the engine over without the oil cap and the cam is not turning! The firing of the ignition must have just been because of where the distributor stopped.. Causing it to produce a spark on cylinder one every now and then. Seen it with my own eyes!
Changing a timing belt doesn't look too painful. I believe these are non-interference engines, so hopefully the valves are okay. The car had not been driven much in the last 10 years, so no surprise it has failed I guess.
It is incredible that it made it on the truck in WA, onto the train, then made it off the train in Melbourne, and made it back onto another truck and only then failed... ready to be rolled off at my house in Melbourne!
Maybe pulling the timing cover and related parts will also explain the big oil leak that was there but seems to have stopped now (though the engine still has plenty of oil in it).
Cheers
alphax
The timing belt is indeed broken. Pulled it all apart it and it seems to me this entire time I have been trying to start it, the cam/dist has not been moving. I say that because thinking back on it now, the dist. rotor has been in the same spot the whole time, when I have checked inside the dist. cap - or at least I think it has.
The cam lobes are very dry, which is odd too.. considering cranking it with the starter was enough to make the oil light disappear and gain oil pressure. You would think oil would be all over the buckets and the lobes, but it's dry.
Yet it sounded like it was trying to fire, at least on one cylinder. and I did have spark on number one cylinder very intermittently, verified by looking directly at the plug firing.
Only place I can see the oil would have leaked from is the cam seal.. but the cam seal is perfectly intact, as is the rocker cover gasket. Might also explain why the leak is gone for now.
Wow!!! Anyway I will slip a new belt on and see what happens.
egads
They must've moved it on the starter
Angus242164
Is the camshaft seized in the head? The oil pump is driven from the intermediate shaft, so broken timing belt = no oil pressure being produced when cranking.
alphax
The cam and head are fine. I removed the cam caps and cam and all is well, no burnt spots or indication of galling/running dry. I have been cranking over trying to start it, but probably the cam has not been turning at all.
The belt was still in situ when I removed the timing cover, sitting in place around the cam and the tensioner etc. but it was heavily scored and broken right around the crank sprocket area.
I am hoping this was the actual cause of all my spark issues and not in addition to other issues. All the wiring around the front of the engine to the ICU looks okay and has the original protective sleeve around it.
If the flame trap is blocked, is it possible that the crankcase/engine pressure build up could force it's way past the cam seal, without blowing the seal out? That appears to be where the oil has come from, and the freight company told me the oil "blasted" out in a big hurry as the engine was switched off. Since then it has not leaked oil.